S2E9: You Make The Sun: Natalie Kuhn's Journey of Burnout, Belonging, and Becoming

Natalie00:00:01

When the five element prayer becomes without thought, you know, when it's so ingrained, the beautiful thing is that what arises is the true understanding that you are not a stranger. You are not my student, you are not the host of this podcast, you are not even my sister. You are my twin.

Paige00:00:23

Yeah.

Natalie00:00:24

And so your well being matters to my well being and my well being matters to your well being.And as soon as I get that, then I no longer see an Israeli, a Palestinian, a Russian, a Ukrainian, a republican, a Democrat, a conservative, a liberal, a black person, a white person, an old person, a young person, a fat person, a skinny person. I see my twin.

Paige00:00:51

Yeah.

Natalie00:00:53

And then there is really no choice yet to be in support of the peace and well being for all of humanity.

Paige00:01:10

Hi, I'm Paige Nolan. Welcome to I'll meet you there. A place where heart centered conversations are everything.Living what matters is the truest thing and sharing the journey is the best. Hi everyone and welcome back. Today's episode brings a healthy dose of positive energy because my guest, Natalie Kuhn, is full of light.Natalie is a writer, teacher, artist, student builder of businesses, poet, and creative thinker. She is a multi hyphenate leader dedicated to living and helping all of us to live a life of aliveness.I crossed paths with Natalie nearly 10 years ago in New York City when I first discovered a workout experience called the Class and Natalie was my teacher.The Class is this super unique, music driven, cathartic method of movement and it's designed to help you release stuck energy and feel better emotionally as you're being challenged physically, and it's very physically challenging. The class was originally founded in 2013 by a woman named Taryn Toomey, and Natalie was employee number one.The times I got to experience the Class were few and far between because there was no class at the time in Los Angeles, where I live full time and there was no class online. So when I visited New York, I always prioritized getting to the class and I loved it even more when Natalie was teaching.To be led by Natalie in Movement, in breathwork, in music, in awareness, is a shot of wellness to your mind, your body and your spirit. I always left Natalie's class dripping sweat and changed.Then in 2020, the class launched an online streaming platform to meet the needs of all of us at home. And I got to work out with Nat all the time.Her playlists, her enthusiasm and her wisdom kept me hopeful and moving through the strangeness of that year. And then outside of the workout, I always look forward to Natalie's messages on social media.Her musings are at once lighthearted, deep and uplifting. Today's episode is actually the first time that Natalie and I have had an hour together in meaningful conversation.A little over a year ago, after 11 years with the class culminating in two years of being in the role of co CEO, Natalie is on her own.She's doing a bunch of different things you'll hear her talk about today and they are all connected to this overarching idea that the weather is the weather, but you make the sun.We talk about Natalie's journey to get to this point in her life and that leads us into topics like creative expression, presence in space, burnout and how we can recover from it, the payoff of a consistent practice, evolving faith, and the five element prayer Natalie uses that she says inevitably leads us to be in support of the peace and well being for all of humanity. Natalie shares so much insight in this episode.She is on a mission to empower each of us with tools to meet our circumstances and to show us how to spark and sustain presence in our everyday lives. Natalie seeks to fulfill this mission in every aspect of her life, including this conversation.I know y' all are going to enjoy and learn from her perspective. Enjoy this time with the bright light of Natalie Kuhn.

Paige00:04:42

Okay, Nat, you. You will get a kick out of this. So sometimes I'm running late, unfortunately.I hate to admit this, but I am running late sometimes for my own podcast where I'm like rushing around. And today I was very. I was very centered. I knew I was talking to you. I have done the class with you more times than I can.And so I have this set up and my laptop is on three books. Are you ready for it?

Natalie00:05:06

Yes.

Paige00:05:07

Dictionary, Bible, Course of Miracles, and right next to me, David Whyte.

Natalie00:05:15

Stop it. Did you do this on purpose? Did you do it on purpose?

Paige00:05:19

Prepared for you. I was. I prepared. I picked my angel card. I'm like, I'm embodied. I want to start with make the Sun.And I just, I'm so happy to say see you and to bring you to my community and we're gonna have fun. So let's start.

Natalie00:05:36

Well, I just feel like I got a hit of dopamine and serotonin. Just got slammed by Good vibes. Thank you, Paige.

Paige00:05:43

Oh, so good. So tell us about Make The Sun. Tell us about the platform where you are right now.You know, sometimes I start with somebody's childhood, but I really thought about this with you. I want to start right where you are because you've got some cool things going on.And I think make the sun actually just that as a platform and like, what that means and the invitation of that is interesting to me. And then we can pop around and go where we need to go.

Natalie00:06:08

Yum. Okay. Make the Sun. Well, make the sun really started with this radical idea that the weather is the weather, but you make the sun.

Paige00:06:20

Yeah.

Natalie00:06:21

And the truth of that is that we don't get to choose our circumstances, no matter how much we wish we could.

Paige00:06:28

We really wish we could.

Natalie00:06:31

But the good news is we do choose how we meet them. And that's the central tenet to everything that I do.Whether it's offering a development workshop or speaking, offering to teams or to audiences, or writing via my substack, or hosting retreats or leading something that I call sun service. It's all under this umbrella of make the sun, which is tools to meet your circumstances, not only well, but with a sense of aliveness and vitality.

Paige00:07:07

Yeah.

Natalie00:07:08

And, you know, it matters to me.And I brought it into fruition because I, along with many others, have felt that magnetism toward numbness, that hypnosis of life's pressures that seem to kind of bring us into black and white thinking or black and white feeling rather than that Technicolor. Right. And I too have been faced with life's grievances and even horrors. Right.

Paige00:07:42

Yes. Yeah.

Natalie00:07:43

And this became a way of saying we don't have to wait for the light to be delivered to us in a wrapped up box of the boat. We can actually cultivate it and create it.And so these tools that I share, workshops, poetry, breathwork, contemplative practice, movement, rituals, they're all ways to spark and sustain that bright, empowered presence in you that is never just for you.

Paige00:08:16

Yes.

Natalie00:08:17

Because it is for you. It is also for your nearest and widest communities.

Paige00:08:23

Yeah.

Paige00:08:25

Tell us about a time, maybe it was earlier, when you needed a tool and didn't have a tool. Like, where does this start for you? Where you've been passionate about personal development. I know you were like that, like me from a young age.I think that's just, you know, seeking creativity, all the things early on. But did you. Can you point to past pain where you were like, I don't know how to get out of this? And so you started finding your tools early on.

Natalie00:08:55

Can you imagine if I was like, no, no.

Paige00:08:58

As I'm asking that?

Natalie00:08:59

Of course, yes. And it really is like, how deep do we want to go with this? We'll just jump off the deep end. Yeah. Okay.Yeah, I mean, the truly earliest memory that I have of meeting pain is actually, you know, my mom, bless her heart and bless her soul. She was one of. I truly. I feel so lucky to have had her as my mom.She really suffered in her relationship to pain, so much so that she began using pain medication and became addicted to it. And so from a very early age, she really was anesthetized to pain.And the way that I, obviously, I didn't know it consciously, subconsciously, and unconsciously, it drove me into performance and theater.And I found that once I wore a costume, I could grieve and I could be angry, and I could have all of these experiences, the full canon of my humanity. That wasn't the tone in my house. The tone in my house was, let's make sure that mom doesn't experience pain, or else she'll use.And then eventually, that costuming that allowed me to feel my full essence led me. I danced for rock bands. I did theater for a long time. And then eventually, the connection that you and I have is this practice called the class.And the class was my way of taking off the costume and leading others to meet their pain in a healthful way and in community. And so now I continue that lineage of sort of healing where my mom left off into.Now I feel actually quite naked, and I feel like pain is actually a dance partner. And I'm able to help others hear the music so that they, too, can make a dance partner of their difficulties.

Paige00:11:05

Yeah, so movement was a tool early on. I mean, movement and expression.Because when I felt like what we're referencing is when I have done the class both in person in New York City, when I would travel there more often before COVID and then online. So that's the experience that I've had, is the class really helped me through Covid and being inside and very limited.And that word comes up a lot in the class.

Natalie00:11:35

Through theater, I guess, elementary school, middle school, and high school, all of my theater training actually had a very rigorous physical training in the background of. Was learning to come into the body and discover the character from the ground first.And then the words were meant to meet that intelligence, whether there's a walk that the character has or the way a character might express something physically. And then that was furthered in my college experience. I went to nyu, which is part conservatory, part, okay, humanities, I suppose.And I learned so many different physical techniques. There's something called Suzuki and Viewpoints and Committed Impulse and Laban.So I. I studied a lot of different techniques that were all about expressing emotion through physical technique.

Paige00:12:33

Yeah.

Natalie00:12:34

And then by accident, I became a dancer for rock bands, in my way.

Paige00:12:41

Did you tour?

Natalie00:12:42

I did. It was so fun.

Paige00:12:44

No way. Like, what kind of bands? Like heavy metal bands, Poppy rock and roll.

Natalie00:12:49

The one that most people recognize is David Byrne from the Talking Heads.

Paige00:12:54

Yeah.

Natalie00:12:54

And I spent a year with him on tour as one of three dancers for. There's actually a rockumentary made of it, if anybody wants to watch it.

Paige00:13:03

Great, we'll put a link. We'll do that in the show notes.

Natalie00:13:06

Yes. And it was the first time. You know, some people would call it contemporary dance. I would call it just weirdo expressive dance. There's no genre.You can't put David into a box. So why would I put the dance into a box? But we were three of us.One was a ballerina, one was a modern dancer, and one, I'm looking at myself, had zero dance training. Oh, wow.

Paige00:13:32

And did you have to audition?

Natalie00:13:34

Sure did. It was like a chorus line. You had to have a number on your chest and the whole nine yards. And I was like.I mean, I was as shocked as anybody to hear that. I got it because I'd never taken a formal dance class in my whole life.

Paige00:13:48

Yeah.

Natalie00:13:49

So I didn't have any technique. I could barely touch my toes. But I did make him laugh.And David was really looking for personalities with a lot of idiosyncrasy, the weirdos of the world. And so.

Paige00:14:00

Yeah.

Paige00:14:01

And then from there, you got it.

Natalie00:14:02

You fit in.

Paige00:14:03

I got it. I nailed that one.

Natalie00:14:06

And then I ended up working with the yeah yeah Yeahs, which is a punk rock.

Paige00:14:11

Oh, yeah.

Natalie00:14:11

Group with Karen Elliot.

Paige00:14:12

I like them. Yeah.

Natalie00:14:13

She ended up doing a punk rock opera.

Paige00:14:18

Wow.

Natalie00:14:20

At St. Anne's Warehouse in New York.

Paige00:14:22

Did it play in New York?

Natalie00:14:23

It played in New York first, and then we had St. Anne's Warehouse, and then we took it to the Sydney Opera House. And so I learned I. I traveled the world through. I saw the world through. Through the lens of David Byrne and Karen.

Paige00:14:39

Oh really?

Natalie00:14:39

Yeah. And it's a very specific way to see the world. It's full of curiosity, it's full of eccentricity, and it's full of authenticity.

Paige00:14:51

Yeah.

Natalie00:14:52

And that's really. My entire 20s was in that realm. And it was in an odd job, in between gigs that I met Taryn, who was kind of in the.In the throes of figuring out what this thing is that was moving through her. And she was doing it in the gym of her apartment building.

Paige00:15:12

When.

Natalie00:15:13

When we met. And so that was back in 2013. And then, you know, 12 years later, there's so much that happened. Yeah.

Paige00:15:20

When did the class become the class where it had a website and you had to sign up for it? Not the class online, but, like, what was that iteration of you moving into a classroom with people who were enrolled and taking it?

Natalie00:15:35

Yes.I remember the day that Taryn told me, I think I'm going to call it the class, and that was in June of 2013, and the website launched in September of 2013. And I remember us looking at those original photos that were. That Jamie, this wonderful photographer and human being, Jamie Baird.

Paige00:16:02

I remember this because the photography is so amazing. And I remember being like, who is Jamie? Like, love photography, you know, so it's really captivating. She's really talented.

Natalie00:16:13

And the Jamie Taryn combo is really beautiful. They've got a great sisterhood, and they both have excellent eyes for style and grace. And so I was lucky enough to cross paths.I really do feel that it was designed. I feel like it was karmic almost.I think Taryn And I and J.C. gossett, who's really the third OG kind of founding member, if you will, or founding teacher, I should say. There was a real kind of spiritual destiny, I think, for the three of us to come together and build it. I mean, you build it. Yeah. And build it.

Paige00:17:06

I was only here and there in New York early on, but I was tracking it because I was interested in it. Because when you take the class, you feel the arc of it. That is the beauty of it. It still exists, by the way, for people listening.It's just Natalie's gone on to make the sun. So this is all part of the journey. You guys can check it out. But there is an arc to the approach to it. It's very intentional.

Paige00:17:31

Music is a huge part of it.

Paige00:17:32

So it makes total sense to me now learning that you are on stage dancing and so deeply connected to music and expression.

Natalie00:17:40

Yes. And each. The three of us, each had a very different relationship to music and spirit and movement.And so us all coming together really was three different angles around the same central axis in some ways. And I learned so much from Taryn. I learned so much from J. And I hope I provided some unique angle for them, too. I hope.But it really was a wonderful cauldron, you know, that. That still, you know, that really I was there for 11 years because of my profound belief that the method really does work. That, yes.If more people can find their ways into their Bodies, the better off we all are. And now my work is just. It's still rooted in that same belief, but taken on a different expression.

Paige00:18:37

Yes.

Paige00:18:38

I have a couple other questions, and I want to get to that next pivot.

Natalie00:18:41

Yeah.

Paige00:18:42

One I have is about, did you step into the class with the level of comfort that I have experienced from you as you are guiding us in the class? And then you have these things come out of your mouth. Are these invitations to internal space? Okay.Like, I didn't even know I had a body until I had twins.

Natalie00:19:05

Obsessive.

Paige00:19:07

So, I mean, just. You made it to me, you know, so natural leading. So disarming. Leading us, you know?So I'm doing the burpees, wanting to die, which is a. Burpees is a big pillar of the class. But then you're saying these things that are inviting me just really in this most gentle but compelling and also kind of convicted way into choosing.I get a choice. Do I have to do burpee number 10? And I'm like, fuck, Natalie.

Natalie00:19:42

Yeah.

Paige00:19:44

Now I'm doing 11 and 12 because of you.

Natalie00:19:47

Right, Right.

Paige00:19:49

So what was the arc of finding that voice? Or did you. Was it so natural for you early on that you were just like, this.

Natalie00:19:55

Is my J. Gosh, no, honey bunny. It was. It took a while. I mean. I mean, who's to say? But it definitely took me a while.I remember, you know, there was no teacher training when of course, joined in. Right. I remember saying to Taryn, I'd love to set up your class in exchange for taking it.And then I'm going to go away, and I'm going to write down what I think happened, and then I'm going to go teach it to my girlfriends and rent a studio for $6 in Greenpoint. And every Sunday, I'm just gonna drill it until I can show you what I think you're doing.

Paige00:20:38

Yes.

Paige00:20:39

Can I just interject that I'm giggling because I so relate to. I'm gonna go write it down.

Natalie00:20:44

I'm gonna go write it down.

Paige00:20:45

I'm gonna go. Right. And then I'll know what happens, and then I'm gonna tell you about it.

Natalie00:20:49

Yeah. Those notes, I literally drew stick figures. You know, I didn't even know the names for certain things.So six months after that, I said, you know, I think I'm ready for you to come take my class. And that class was horrible. I was off the beat. I was using really terrible.

Paige00:21:06

I can't imagine.

Natalie00:21:07

Yeah, I mean, honestly, I'll believe you.

Paige00:21:11

I trust you. But it's hard to imagine.

Natalie00:21:14

I mean, it was like, it was a real prayer, let's say. But, you know, bless her. Taryn took a chance on me. She saw something in me, I felt something in me.I just really needed time and trust and that's what she gave me. And I think it was probably. It took a few years, if I'm honest.And then when I moved to LA, which was family driven, it wasn't through the class, but I ended up expanding the class to LA because of that move. I had another teacher named Allison McClea Wolper, and she, she was somebody else who refined my ability to. And this, use this term.I even like roll my eyes using it because it's been so overused by the wellness industry, like the industry of wellness, but hold space, you know, I remember she came to take my class and she said, you're not ready to teach to 100 people, but I know how to get you there. And she took me under her wing.

Paige00:22:12

Yeah, what's the difference? Just, just the level of presence.

Natalie00:22:17

The level of presence, but also the ability to be expanded enough in myself and in my awareness to take in the back of the room and the sides of a room and. And this is true for the boardroom as much as it is an audience of 100. Right.If you can go into a boardroom or a team meeting or an all hands and you can get a sense of the body that is the organization, the organism that is the organization, which is to say one person cannot make it happen. It needs. The organism, needs each of its members, its parts, its legs, its arms, its organs.Then you can get a sense of how to steer the ship and how to not leave anybody out.

Paige00:23:13

Yes.

Paige00:23:14

Do you think that people are receptive to this? I know you're working with leaders, you work with organizations.Is this something that transfers, you know, from something that is a very physical, you know, people are doing the class or some of these other embodied experiences for physical health. And now you're going in and consulting.

Natalie00:23:37

Right.

Paige00:23:38

The leader. Can they understand in today's culture of leadership, are you making a difference? Are you being received?

Natalie00:23:44

It's so fascinating, Paige, because I work with big organizations like Google and Virgin and Newell and Worldwide Tech. These, you know, and they have heard the words change, trust, breathwork, you know, emotional intelligence.

Paige00:24:05

Yeah.

Natalie00:24:07

Intuitive thinking. And so there is some part of them that says, I know my team needs this. I'm not totally sure how or why.So I'm going to take a chance and say yes to whatever this is when I come into their spaces, which is usually a conference or an off site or some kind of a summit. Now I'm leading them through the workshop or the practice and immediately it's I, you know, deer and headlights.

Paige00:24:41

They're like, oh, I.

Natalie00:24:45

I'll. What do you mean? Move my body. What do you mean? Breathe deep. And there's a real panic that starts off.

Paige00:24:53

Yes.

Natalie00:24:53

Because to actually take a deep breath is to come into a level of vulnerability that is not typical, familiar, or even accepted.

Paige00:25:06

Yeah.

Paige00:25:08

And that, by the way, that makes me want to breathe. We should just breathe for a second.

Natalie00:25:15

I mean, I took a deep breath myself.

Paige00:25:17

It's so true. Not accepted. Okay, tell me more.

Natalie00:25:22

When the beautiful thing that I learned specifically through Allison McClee Wolper and many of my teachers that I met along my 30s, is that if you can speak to what is happening in someone's head, then they're more likely to trust you and try it.So generally I'll name what I can hear people thinking and then they'll drop some or at least an inch of the depth of their resistance and maybe there's a slightly deeper breath. And then by the end of the facilitation or the workshop, there's a real sense that transformation happened.Something shifted in the room and it will always be for the good. The higher good.

Paige00:26:20

Yes.

Natalie00:26:21

So there's something that pulls the organization toward the experience and then they leave with a deeper understanding of why.

Paige00:26:31

Yes. Yeah.

Paige00:26:34

Do you think the thing that is missing is the word presence? Is it the experience of being fully present to our teams, to each other, to what it means to be a part of a group?

Natalie00:26:48

I would even expand that community and say the thing that is missing is presence.

Paige00:26:58

Wow. Yeah.

Paige00:27:01

Everything.

Natalie00:27:02

Yeah, everything. Whether it is, you know, they, they say it's the three marriages, Work, relationship and self.

Paige00:27:10

Yeah.

Natalie00:27:10

The thing that is missing in work, in relationship, in the way that we look in the mirror, is deep, profound, loving kind of presence.

Paige00:27:24

Yeah.

Paige00:27:25

So what grew in you as you were realizing that you might change and leave the class? You moved into leadership. You did the co CEO thing, You moved to la. Family motivated. What were you becoming more present to as you were feeling that?Because no one, in my experience, no one changes that big of a move. You're 11 years, you've built something incredible. It's thriving. You've made such an impact.

Natalie00:27:54

Right.

Paige00:27:55

You know, what are you becoming present to in your life? Maybe it's circumstantial, maybe it's just your own self awareness of where how you want to show up and what you want to experience. You're a builder.You know, was it. I'm going to go build something else or talk to us about that lead up to that and that choice.

Natalie00:28:13

Thank you.The last year that I had the privilege of being co CEO at the class, I was also caregiving to my fiance who had been diagnosed with stage four cancer. And there is no playbook for caregiving and leadership. Well, there's no playbook for either. There's certainly not one for both at the same time.

Paige00:28:42

Yes.

Natalie00:28:43

And I had to keep all the plates spinning. And I know probably many of your listeners can relate.

Paige00:28:54

Yes.

Natalie00:28:54

There is a season of our lives where our job is to keep the plates spinning.

Paige00:29:01

Yeah.

Natalie00:29:02

And what started to happen was that even though I needed to keep them spinning, I was keeping them spinning.

Paige00:29:08

Yes. I get it. I totally get it. I think there are a lot of heads nodding right now listening to that. We are plate thinners around here.

Natalie00:29:19

I have to keep them spinning. Yeah. But the. But the psychosis or the suffering was that I want to be. I mean, I was gripping onto the notion that I had to keep it all up.And you know, one of the stories I often tell is that I had to find an apartment very quickly, almost overnight, so that we could begin treatment. And if I were really in my body, if I had been truly present. Yeah. If I hadn't been lost in my life terror.

Paige00:29:49

Yeah.

Natalie00:29:50

Then I would have been able to accept the fact that I just needed to get an apartment. I just needed to find an apartment which is. Which is a high goal but also an attainable one. Right. But instead I didn't fully accept it.I didn't fully allow for that to just be what needed to be done. Instead, I was gripping in fear and in rage and in desperation that I was fighting an apartment.

Paige00:30:23

Yes.

Natalie00:30:23

Like going Cujo on this thing. And. And so it. So my circumstances were difficult, but I added difficulty on top of.

Paige00:30:33

Yes. Yes.

Natalie00:30:34

And that's really when you suffer.

Paige00:30:37

Yeah. What.

Paige00:30:38

What did that look like? Just the pace. Are you moving at a fast pace? Are you.

Natalie00:30:42

I mean, fast pace. Rigidity. Don't get in my way.

Paige00:30:48

Yeah.

Paige00:30:49

Cut off.

Natalie00:30:49

Give it to me. I got it.

Paige00:30:51

Yeah.

Natalie00:30:52

Just so. Just kind of blinders on and blocked emote. My heart was just locked and it's not. I don't recommend it.

Paige00:31:05

But here, here's my question about that. Like, and I, you know, I. You and I both have a practice. We both do. We walk our talk, you know, like, so we're we're doing all the things.Is there a way ever to bypass some of that? I don't think there is. Like, I think that you going through that had to go through is part of the deal. Like, and I do that all the time with myself.Like, I'm. I'm. No, intellectually, you know, once I get on the other side of something, it's like, why was I that anxious? Why did I have to be that anxious?Because I run a little anxious. So I'm like, I have all the tools. I have a million books behind me on anxiety. I've helped hundreds of people through anxiety.

Natalie00:31:47

Right.

Paige00:31:48

So I have to. And I'm asking you this. If this is where you end up with the acceptance that part of the human experience is right next to the.The limits of, like, what you can understand, practice, transcend, whatever. So is that how you take it?

Natalie00:32:08

She's preaching now. She's preaching, ladies and gentlemen. That's it. You named it. I mean, I really do think I am.I do subscribe or ascribe to the notion that things are happening for us.And I think that in order for me to really understand how to work with my anger, my grief, and my identity structure, that I have to be the one, and nobody else can help me do it. I had to go through that crucible, and on the other side, it's an unsustainable identity structure. Right.So I had to go through that for the course of a year, the season of a year, to break down enough in order to break through that identity. And so there was a part of me. I think the first part of that path is that some part of you is dying off.

Paige00:33:05

Yes.

Natalie00:33:05

And so we feel that sense of fear. Well, God, who am I if. If I'm not the one who handles it all, all the time? And in exactly this way.

Paige00:33:17

Yeah.

Natalie00:33:17

And then as that part of me was dying off, there was another part of me that was arising, which is, in order for me to grow, I actually have to leave.

Paige00:33:29

Yeah.

Natalie00:33:30

And I needed the part that. The identity that was coming to a close to be so in my face.

Paige00:33:43

Yes.

Natalie00:33:44

You know, to be so loud that I finally heard it.

Paige00:33:47

Yeah.

Natalie00:33:48

And in the wake of. Of that voice booming.

Paige00:33:53

Yeah.

Natalie00:33:53

Another voice was starting to be heard as a whisper.

Paige00:33:58

Yeah.

Natalie00:33:58

Which is. It's time to leave.

Paige00:34:02

Yeah.

Paige00:34:03

And have. Has you been able to integrate that?Like, is that now is this new relationship to accepting what is and how you manage the stress of what is, has that evolved? Has that changed in a consistent way?

Natalie00:34:18

Definitely has evolved. And I would say that I'm much more. I will say that it's not that I never experience the anxiety of change or the fear of the unknown.It's that I've gotten better at returning faster.

Paige00:34:37

Yes.

Natalie00:34:38

So. And that's really it. It's not that it doesn't ever happen, it's just that. But I get to come back to neutral with more frequency and with more ease.

Paige00:34:49

Yes.

Natalie00:34:50

And that's the gift of. That's the payoff of practice.

Paige00:34:54

Yes.

Paige00:34:55

That's so beautifully said. I think that is one of my biggest lessons. Life lessons, spiritual lessons, adulthood lessons.And the therapist who introduced me to that, this beloved man named Greg, who I reference all the time to my clients. I don't know if I've talked about Greg on the podcast yet. I'm sure I have. And he called it the rate of recovery.Because I felt like I really started doing real personal development at age 38. So I have all this stuff kind of, you know, interest in it. My mom was, is a, was a therapist in my high school and college years.So, like I had all this exposure and love reading all about it. But to really put it into practice and really change and understand was from like 38 to 43, I worked with him real consistently.And that one idea that you just articulated so beautifully was so massive for me because I thought I could just achieve it, you know, if I know these ideas, I can achieve practice. You practice practice.

Natalie00:36:02

Right.

Paige00:36:03

You don't. It's hard to unwind at achieving things. Like a practice is a practice.

Natalie00:36:08

Right.

Paige00:36:08

And.

Paige00:36:08

And that I thought that I would get to a point, especially around 40, because that's such a big. And now I'm 50, you know, these zero years.

Paige00:36:15

Yep.

Paige00:36:16

I thought at 40, I'm an adult. Like I. I won't feel pain. Like I'll have it all. I'll know who I am.

Natalie00:36:23

Right.

Paige00:36:23

That's where the shit starts. Well, Paige, in a good way, I know you're.

Natalie00:36:28

I have just turned 40.

Paige00:36:30

I guess the only way you did it though, you were doing it because you had to go through cancer with Kevin. That's a big. That was a big thing in your 30s.

Natalie00:36:39

It's a biggie. But I think the saving grace is that I know that I'm just a baby in a 40 year old's body.

Paige00:36:48

Yeah. Aren't we all the baby in whatever age body.

Natalie00:36:53

Yes. And I, I'm fortunate now to actually be in relationship to that baby.

Paige00:36:59

Yes.

Natalie00:37:00

And her tantrums, rather than letting her take the steering wheel and, you know, drive without a license.

Paige00:37:06

Yeah.

Natalie00:37:12

Bless her.

Paige00:37:13

Yeah, bless her, Bless her. So you would say you've gotten more self compassionate. Then talk to us about compassion. What is that like? What is that?That's a big thing for my, my personal journey and also what I help people with. It's. I think self compassion is so essential.

Paige00:37:31

And it's so hard.

Natalie00:37:32

Do you know what I heard read this quote the other day that was just a full mic drop, stop me in the tracks. Life won't be the same.

Paige00:37:42

Yeah.

Natalie00:37:43

After. And it was, you don't have to burn out to show you care.

Paige00:37:49

Oh, that's so awesome.

Paige00:37:50

Yeah, that's so true.

Natalie00:37:53

And let me just, let me say it again louder for the back. You don't have to burn out to show that you care.

Paige00:38:02

Yeah.

Natalie00:38:05

I am this years old figuring that one out.

Paige00:38:09

Yes, yes.

Natalie00:38:11

You know, and I think that is actually what my 30s were about. And the harvest that began my 40s is that notion.And when I start to feel, because I do think burnout is the sign of a certain kind of addiction, that there is an addiction to the care, the illusion of care that comes from being the one who can handle it.

Paige00:38:41

Yes.

Natalie00:38:41

You know?

Paige00:38:42

Yes.

Natalie00:38:42

And to everybody out there, let me save you a lot of time and a lot of grief. You don't have to go down in a ball of flames to learn that. You can now. And now I feel like I see the road signs, whereas I missed them before.I was so concentrated on sort of getting to the destination of achievement, to use your word, that I missed the whole. The like neon yellow sign that said, slow down, road ends ahead.

Paige00:39:18

Yeah.

Natalie00:39:19

Construction ahead.

Paige00:39:20

I get it. Yes. It's autopilot versus choosing to fly. You know, like I'm going to navigate this. I'm looking for signs.It's like you were saying your growth curve in the class with Allison's guidance, the awareness of the edges of the room, the awareness of the back of the room. It's just you get up there, you teach to the first or second row. And then there's. That's kind of our lives.We get up there and we're like, well, we got the first, the second. We're getting partnership, getting raises in our jobs, buying a house or whatever.

Natalie00:39:54

And of course, that external practice isn't the internal mirror. Right. Like the first person in the audience is my perfectionism. I can look you dead in the eye and we are going to get it done.But if I really start to soften my eyes and let my peripheral vision Open.I notice that there is a young girl sitting in the fifth row, all the way to the right, who is very, very tired and she's hungry and she hasn't slept. Because generally speaking, these are the very basic human needs that we ignore.And I've learned to be like, ah, little Natalie, let me give you a snack.

Paige00:40:35

Yeah.

Natalie00:40:36

And that's.I think that is what that part of my world in my 30s was all about, where I started to see not just the identity structures that made me feel safe and relevant.

Paige00:40:54

Yes.

Natalie00:40:54

And worthy.

Paige00:40:56

Yeah.

Natalie00:40:56

But I started to become aware of the identity structures. Well, like what it means to not hold on to any of them.

Paige00:41:06

Yes.

Natalie00:41:06

To see the room full of all my identity structures, all the archetypes, all the versions of myself.And then actually to take in the walls or to take in the sky or to take in something much larger, a wider horizon, a broader horizon than these little myopic parts of myself. And that. That has created so much joy.

Paige00:41:31

Yes.

Natalie00:41:32

In my life and so much ease and gratitude.

Paige00:41:37

Yeah.

Natalie00:41:38

And that's one of the things that as soon as I see myself gripping and getting into that single point of focus and the. It's only the road ahead. It's not the mountain side to the left or the ocean to the right.

Paige00:41:50

Yeah.

Natalie00:41:51

That's where I go, girlfriend, we gotta stop.

Paige00:41:53

Yes.

Natalie00:41:54

Collaborate and listen.

Paige00:42:01

Oh, it's so good.

Natalie00:42:03

So good.

Paige00:42:04

So is there a practice for that now? You mentioned earlier you were so into the class. 11 years. And then you mentioned that. Or you referenced.Okay, I've had a total shift, so I want to get into what that shift is professionally for you and how you're thinking. But. But is that also a shift in the practice? Like, you used to do the class five days a week, I would imagine, you know, or how you were teaching.You were practicing the class.

Natalie00:42:28

Yeah.

Paige00:42:28

So what does that look like to be embodied now? What is that moment where you're like, okay, I'm stopped. I've paused. I've tuned into my inner life. Is there a practice around that?And then talk to us about where you are now away from the class with what the philosophy and the point of view there.

Natalie00:42:45

The. The most immediate practice that I use every couple of minutes.

Paige00:42:55

Yeah.

Natalie00:42:56

Is. Is this. Sounds cuckoo, but I locate my belly button.

Paige00:43:03

Oh, I'd love.

Natalie00:43:04

Which is to say I would have.

Paige00:43:06

By the way, no idea where my belly button is right now.

Natalie00:43:09

So.

Paige00:43:10

So this is good. Walk me through it. What do I do?

Natalie00:43:13

Yeah. So right now you might just place one of your hands on Your belly button.And then physically, now you've located the center of your being and also the space from which you take a real breath. Right. We take shallow breaths up in our chest and in our throat, and shallow breaths physiologically create anxiety.So if we were to bring our hand to our belly and physically locate our belly space, it actually brings a somatic awareness to take a belly breath.

Paige00:43:44

Okay. If you're listening, y' all can do this with me, because I'm actually doing this while Nat is explaining it.

Natalie00:43:49

And you don't even have to press your belly out. You simply need to ask your breath to fill that space.

Paige00:43:57

Okay.

Natalie00:43:59

And your hand is the one that receives it. So your words were, push my belly button out, and my words are, let your hand receive your breath.

Paige00:44:10

Yeah.

Natalie00:44:11

And when I do that, you can feel when I let my breath deepen into the bowl of my hips and fill the space of my belly, there is a sense that my mind is now coming into my belly, which I could say my intellect is dropping into my intuition.

Paige00:44:32

Okay.

Natalie00:44:33

And I have more space to become present.

Paige00:44:37

Yeah.

Natalie00:44:38

Presence and space in many ways are the same thing, you know?And when I am locked in a belief or a limiting, you know, or a limiting thought or an emotion or a stress or a worry, Whatever word you want to use for it.

Paige00:44:58

Yeah.

Natalie00:44:59

If I just bring my navel. If I just bring my attention to my navel, nine times out of ten, it is drawn in and locked to my spine, which allows for no breath in the belly.So, wow. It makes me aware I'm breathing shallowly in my chest. And again, I'm gonna just say it, because this. The repetition is on purpose.A shallow breath creates anxiety.

Paige00:45:25

Yeah.

Natalie00:45:26

And anxiety creates a shallow breath. A deeper breath will create a sense of space, and a sense of space will create a deeper breath. So it's all interwoven.

Paige00:45:39

Yeah.

Natalie00:45:40

And when I can take a deeper breath and I do this with my current team, creating the new company that I'm helping to build, I do this on stage. I do this in the bedroom. I do this when I'm looking at myself in the mirror and saying horrible things.If I can actually really take a deep breath, it gives me the space to consider another way.

Paige00:46:07

Yeah.

Paige00:46:08

Do you exhale first when you. I have shallow breath a lot.That really helps me, what you said about anxiety, because when I take the shallow breath and then I think to myself, oh, it's a shallow breath. It makes me more anxious. So what you just said, I have.

Paige00:46:22

A lived experience of that.

Paige00:46:24

So that really Resonates. Do you exhale first? If you're in shallow breath mode?

Natalie00:46:30

You know, whatever floats your boat. I would say try it on like a sweater and see what fits. Yeah, sometimes if you're shallow breathing, it might be useful to exhale completely.Empty out.

Paige00:46:43

Yeah.

Natalie00:46:44

Fill back up. Sometimes it's useful if you're shallow breathing to inhale completely so you can feel the grandness of your rib cage and then return to neutral.You know, it really is not a one size fits all kind of thing. Yeah, it really is.Where your stress behavior has patterned itself physically and where your physical behavior patterns have created a behavior, they are one in the same. They're two sides of the same coin.

Paige00:47:17

Yeah.

Natalie00:47:18

The physical manifestation, the physical body and our behaviors manifest each other.

Paige00:47:25

Yeah.

Natalie00:47:25

So if I'm constantly with my shoulders rolled over my keyboard, I am emotionally protecting my heart.

Paige00:47:34

Yes.

Natalie00:47:35

If I take a chance of rolling my shoulders back and I make that a point to every day instead of, you know, my thing's my navel.But if yours were to drop your shoulders down your back, your heart might lift, you might feel more open, and that might be a change you experience and embody in the world.

Paige00:47:53

Yes. I love that.

Paige00:47:55

Okay, so take us from that. So the. The practice. We have your practice.

Paige00:48:00

Yeah.

Paige00:48:02

How is it so different from the class now? You're studying theology. You've. You're making the sun, like talk to us about that big shift away from years and real 24/7 investment with the class.The burnout that you rec. That you recognize. And by the way, can we just acknowledge burnout and make the sun.

Natalie00:48:22

Paige. Never thought about it.

Paige00:48:24

Just. I just, I can't.I was like listening and I'm like, oh my gosh, she's gone from burning with no lip, just burning out to a controlled light source that you're making.

Natalie00:48:39

I just bless.

Paige00:48:42

I'm into it too.

Natalie00:48:43

Thank you.

Paige00:48:44

This is why I'm celebrating your journey. I wanted you here to share with all of us because it's beautiful, but I didn't even realize that. I knew burnout was a thing for you.I've heard you speak about burnout, but to hear you really talk about it, I just wanted to pause on it because it's very cool. Your little soul is really guiding you in an unconscious but like light filled way.

Natalie00:49:04

Yes. I love her. Thank you. Well, yes, my life is now. I was really so full on heads down, blood, sweat and tears in this one source in my life. In many.I was married before and in many ways the dissolution of that marriage was because I actually was married to my work. And so this time around, I'm starting to learn more balance. And I have three different tracks in my life. So one is I'm in interfaith seminary.So I'm not learning one religious tradition, but actually I'm studying multiple on a track toward ordination. So I've got an. I'm 50% of the way there. I've got another year, and that's one track.The other track is make the sun, which is these different workshops and speaking and facilitation and writing. And then there's this other part that loves to build and loves to create.And that part of me is the chief experience officer for a company that will be opening in January called Halen. And in time, I'll share more about that.We're still sort of in our IP phase of not sharing too much, but it's in London and it's using ancient techniques that have been around for thousands of years that help people return to themselves, come back to their bodies, strengthen their bodies, but met with really modern technology. There is a relationship to AI and kind of a cinematic experience and an immersive experience. So I can't wait to.Maybe if I am so gifted with the opportunity of a second episode with you, we'll get to that in a few months. We'll get to that. But, yeah, so building that business is lighting a fire that I. That I'm so happy to fan those flames of. Make the sun and seminary.And I'm realizing that having three different tracks fulfills so much of me. And if I really look at the class, you know, I was a teacher and I was on the corporate side, so there was a sense of using all sides of myself.And I think that's just innate in who I am. There's the artist side and then there's this builder side.

Paige00:51:46

Do you feel like studying faith has changed your faith? Has it strengthened your faith? Where are you on the faith journey right now? Share that with us.

Natalie00:51:53

It has expanded. How shall I say it? If faith were a house of different rooms.

Paige00:52:05

Yeah.

Natalie00:52:06

I grew up in the room of Catholicism, and my mother was a nun and all of her aunts and uncles on her side on my mother's side were. So I have three nuns and two priests on my mother's side. And the joke in the family is that we're all going to hell because they've all divorced God.They've all left the monastery, they've all left the nunnery.

Paige00:52:29

Yeah, but you're going. You're going back to, you're going to heal generations from this. Nat.You realize, because you're going back to it in a way that's healthy and that you can heal all this leaving.

Natalie00:52:39

And you know what? I actually do believe that all five of them did have a healthy relationship to it.

Paige00:52:44

Oh, that's good.

Natalie00:52:45

Which is unique, I think.

Paige00:52:46

Yeah.

Natalie00:52:47

And it is because they were all raised by nuns and priests in boarding school, and that was kind of the thing that you did. And they had a real, real commitment to spirit rather than dogma.

Paige00:52:59

Yes.

Natalie00:53:00

And they had a real commitment to community service rather than self.

Paige00:53:05

Yes.

Paige00:53:06

I find that with Catholicism, it can be so mystical. You know, like there's that whole branch of it or version of it that's really mystical.And I'm born and raised in New Orleans, which is a really Catholic city, and the level of civic mindedness and Catholicism is amazing. Like, I am so inspired by that commitment to civility and being a part of the community and helping. So I've had that exposure, too. To Catholicism.

Natalie00:53:34

Absolutely. You named it. And then, and then the other side is also true. Right. The twisting of the word, for sure.

Paige00:53:40

And the guilt.

Natalie00:53:41

The guilt and the, the othering and the, and the violence that can also come. And it really is about what community do you fall into when, when you are in that, you know, when it is faith as opposed to the industry of faith.

Paige00:53:58

Yes, yes.

Natalie00:54:00

You know, wellness versus the industry of wellness.

Paige00:54:03

Yes.

Paige00:54:04

So did you ever practice Catholicism growing up?

Natalie00:54:07

I was baptized and I had my first communion and I just said to my mom, like, you know, I, I, I don't believe in these stories.

Paige00:54:15

Yeah.

Natalie00:54:16

And so why am I getting confirmed in them?

Paige00:54:18

Yes.

Natalie00:54:19

And so, bless her heart, she allowed me to stop and release myself from confirmation. And secretly, what I didn't know is that she was calling up my aunt who had become Buddhist after she was Catholic.And she came down the following weekend and handed me Thich Nhat Hanh's Living Buddha, Living Christ. And it was a book that was like, oh, my mom's not crazy. Actually, everybody, and by everybody, I mean, you know, Buddha, Jesus, Allah. Yes.Everybody is just trying to guide you on a path of being a good human.

Paige00:54:51

Yes.

Natalie00:54:53

Which is to say, remembering that you're spirit.

Paige00:54:55

Yes.

Natalie00:54:56

So I did dabble in Buddhism when I was in the ripe old age of 13 to 15. And when it came to that magical moment of understanding minimalism, I said, not with my Dave Matthews Band poster and renounced the whole thing.And that's when music really became My religion and then dancing for rock bands. It is a sense of communion. You are in communion in music with community. Right.So that became that and then movement and music and all that is that practice of the class then was my spiritual practice. And after leaving that, I. And so let's just say that Buddhism was another room in the house and then music was the kitchen.You know, I started to realize that to study interfaith and inter spirituality is to actually blow down all the walls.

Paige00:55:59

Yes.

Natalie00:56:00

And to arrive in a prairie of sorts where we can put name names to the nameless and we can put form to the formless.

Paige00:56:13

Yeah.

Natalie00:56:14

But the real importance is to connect which with that which cannot be named and that which is without form.

Paige00:56:22

Yeah.

Natalie00:56:23

And that is now where faith is for me. It is a very private conversation with.

Paige00:56:35

Yeah.

Natalie00:56:36

I will use the word God, but I will also say all that is.

Paige00:56:40

Yes. Yeah. Beautiful.

Natalie00:56:42

And I think. I think one of the most important practices. Because you asked about practices.So one is attention to my navel and my belly button, which I just like the word belly button better than navel. That's right. The other one is something that I learned at seminary. It's called five Element prayer.

Paige00:57:00

Okay.

Natalie00:57:01

It's from New Thought, which was really a female led form of faithful philosophy. And the first step is to acknowledge that there is something beyond you, that this is not a nihilistic or solipsistic world.You did not create the tree. That there is some other organizing principle. Yeah. And the second is to acknowledge that you are not separate from it.That you and the tree are twins.

Paige00:57:28

Yeah. Yeah.

Natalie00:57:30

You are both breathing in some way, shape, or form. You're both alive. And the third thing is to state your business. So. And you state your business in present tense. I am here to acknowledge the.You know, whatever it is. Why are you praying?

Paige00:57:46

What are you calling in?

Natalie00:57:47

What are you dreaming about? What are you hoping for? What's on your heart? What's in your soul's desire? And the fourth step is thanksgiving. Offer it all thanks.Thanks for where you are. Thanks for where you're just about to be. All of the things that had to collide for this moment.It's almost like a mathematical impossibility that this moment has occurred.

Paige00:58:13

Yes.

Natalie00:58:14

And thanks be to breath in your lungs and clean water to drink. And I make a challenge of it, to enumerate as many things I could possibly be grateful for within.I even set a timer sometimes, and it gets a little bit longer each day. I'm like, oh, now we're at 10 minutes. And then the fifth one is to let go. If you've ever been in recovery, you might say let go and let God.But it's really to surrender, which comes from the old French surrender. Oh, to give over. So to give over oneself to the deeper river of life that is flowing that you are simply a part of.

Paige00:58:55

Yeah.

Paige00:58:56

What a beautiful balance to come from the class to this like. And to bring it all into the sun. I mean, it's. It is, it's so. It suits.You're meeting the moment, I think, because what we need in this moment is the universality. I mean, we have forgotten how universal and expansive. And to your word, prairie, I think.

Natalie00:59:20

Of the word field.

Paige00:59:21

You know, it's like we're all in the field together. We're here beyond right doing and wrongdoing, you could say.Yes, but we need more leaders to be shining that light and to be holding harmony and communion and unity.

Natalie00:59:39

When the five element prayer becomes without thought, you know, when it's so ingrained, the beautiful thing is that what arises is the true understanding that you are not a stranger. You are not my student, you are not the host of this podcast. You are not even my sister. You are my twin.

Paige01:00:03

Yeah.

Natalie01:00:04

And so your well being matters to my well being and my well being matters to your well being.And as soon as I get that, then I no longer see an Israeli, a Palestinian, a Russian, a Ukrainian, a Republican, a Democrat, a conservative, a liberal, a black person, a white person, an old person, a young person, a fat person, a skinny person. I see my twin.

Paige01:00:31

Yeah.

Natalie01:00:34

And then there is really no choice but to be in support of the peace and well being for all of humanity.

Paige01:00:43

Yeah.

Paige01:00:45

I have to bring him up because what you just said reminds me of David Whyte.

Paige01:00:49

And maybe it's great that we're here.

Paige01:00:51

Because I have to be aware of our time, even though I could keep you all day. The recognition. Maybe it's John o' Donohue really that talks about that, but they both kind of talk about that. Is this what you mean by that?And I know his work is one of the rooms in your house.

Natalie01:01:09

Yes.

Paige01:01:10

Is it that recognizing that I recognize you, you are me, and that immediate sense of goodwill, and not even a sense of goodwill because you're not separate, but just the presence. I find his poetry to be so much about the presence, the space, the conversation, the recognition.

Natalie01:01:31

David and John. David Whte and John O'Donohue, who have. You are right. Have been seminal in my development.And what they both talk about is meeting the Stranger in you.

Paige01:01:46

Okay.

Natalie01:01:47

And when you are able to meet the stranger in you with kindness and compassion, only then are you capable of meeting the stranger beyond you with the same compassion and kindness. And that it is. You know, I actually interviewed him for. I'm also the editor at large for this magazine called Human Shift.It's a really beautiful magazine.And I opened by saying, you know, David, you speak so much of the conversational nature of reality, which I understand as a dialogue between you and all things. And he said, when I say conversation of reality, I don't mean dialogue, I mean conversation. Because it is all dimensional.It is with all parts of ourselves and all, you know, it is actually a giving and taking, a listening and a receiving.

Paige01:02:43

We are going to tell our listeners where to find you.And this was such a treat to understand the rooms in your house, to understand what light means to you, to bring your light here, to share your light. We're going to tell people about make the Sun. And I'm just so glad you're out in the world doing your thing.And I can't wait to see where your 40s take you.

Natalie01:03:04

Paige, thank you for this opportunity to be in conversation.

Paige01:03:10

Yes.

Natalie01:03:11

Conversing with you in such a beautiful and profound way.Thank you to your listeners and thank you for the work that you do of, of inquiring and co creating with all of your guests to bring depth into the world and tools into the world. You're a delight.

Paige01:03:31

I've watched Natalie grow and expand her life in so many ways over the years I've known her work and our time together was extra special because she really does embody that shine that she encourages in all of us. Sometimes we make transformation too complicated. We think we need a big strategy and we gear up, up.It's going to be this massive call to action to change our lives. But Natalie reminds us, if you can take a deep breath, it gives you the space to consider another way.Being aware enough to take a deep breath, being aware enough to consider another way, that is exactly where transformation begins. It's that simple. But it's easy to forget that it's there. Coming back into the body.Body and connecting with self is one of the most powerful tools we have. Natalie lives this practice and shows us that we don't have to be afraid of shedding identity structures when we're changing.When circumstances are challenging, we will experience anxiety and fear.But if we can lean into our practice, be it movement, belly button, breathing, prayer, dance, nature walks, authentic conversations, gratitude, whatever it is, the practice is where we find stability and recovery. I loved how Natalie described her faith as being a house with different rooms.I think that's a great exercise for all of us to consider our faith more deeply. What ideas occupy the rooms in your house of faith? Which rooms feel coziest to you these days?And when you think about how your life is organized, is there a way for you to spend more time in those comforting spaces? I admire Natalie's curiosity to visit the rooms in her house and the energy she has to explore and appreciate her faith.And then, of course, she generously opens the doors for all of us so we may be inspired and add color and texture to the rooms in our house. Faith is a place of shelter and people like Natalie make faith playful and inviting. That is a gift. Thank you, Nat.It was truly a joy to share this time with you. Thank you for offering your presence and your prayer and of course your practice.I think make the sun is a great name for what you're doing with your life because we can feel your warmth and it is life giving. I'm going to end our episode with some words written by John o' Donoghue that made me think of you you and it's a hope I hold for each of us.May you realize that the shape of your soul is unique, that you have a special destiny here, that behind the facade of your life there is something beautiful, good and eternal happening. Okay y', all, that's it for today.Check out the show notes to learn more about Natalie and how you can connect with her mission and make the sign and I will meet you here again soon. Thanks to each of you for being.

Paige01:06:35

Here and for listening. I'm so grateful we get to share life in this way. As always, full show notes are available@paigenolan.com podcast.There you will find a full summary of the episode, timestamps and key takeaways and any resources mentioned in our conversation.If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love if you would leave me a rating and a review, you can do that by visiting pagenolan.com love your reviews, really do help people to discover the show.

Paige01:07:04

And if you know someone specifically who.

Paige01:07:06

Would enjoy this episode, I'm so grateful to have you all share. I'll meet you there with your friends. Lastly, if you have any questions or comments or if you would like to share any feedback with me, please email.

Paige01:07:17

To meetmethere@paigenolan.com. I would love to hear from you.

Paige01:07:23

Thank you to the team that makes this show possible. Podcast production and Marketing by North Node podcast network.Music by Boyd McDonnell Cover photography by Innis Casey okay, y', all, that's it for now. I'll meet you there again soon.