Spaciousness, Stillness & Self-Forgetfulness: The Path to Inspiration with Danielle Baldwin

North Node.

The easiest way that I describe motivation and inspiration is.

Inspiration is the pull and motivation is the push.

Yeah.

So in a moment in which a team has lost sight of like the why, that is when you need inspiration is when you need the poll.

Yeah.

When they're pretty clear on what the why and they can see the top of the mountain, but they're like stuck in the mud.

That's when you need some motivation.

That's when you need a little bit of push.

Yeah.

Right.

But they work in tandem because we know by definition inspiration is fleeting.

Yeah.

Like you're gonna get.

It's like, it's why so many.

Like, I call it sparking greatness.

It is.

It's a spark.

It's a lightning bolt.

It's a firework.

Like, it's this like, beautiful flash where everything.

You get this level of clarity and you're like, oh, okay.

I think it's a connection to your higher self and like your higher purpose.

Like, you get these flashes of it and then you need the motivation to like, once you've seen it and the sky goes dark again.

Motivation is what lights you up to help get you back to what you saw.

Yes.

Hi, I'm Paige Nolan.

Welcome to.

I'll meet you there.

A place where heart centered conversations are everything.

Living what matters is the truest thing and sharing the journey is the best.

Hi everyone, and welcome back.

Today, my guest is a dear friend, Danielle Baldwin.

I'm so excited to have her here.

To talk about this topic that's really important to her.

So important, in fact, that she decided.

To write a book about it.

And it's also a topic that interests me because I feel like it's important to all of us in a way that we don't often realize.

The topic is inspiration.

Danielle Baldwin is an executive coach and the author of a new book entitled Sparking.

Harnessing the power of inspiration to lead boldly and live fully.

Danielle and I went to college together.

We share a lot of funny and now fuzzy memories of those days.

After college, we've bonded over our shared love for creative writing.

And now, in our more recent years, we also share a career path in coaching.

Danielle started her career in the corporate world, earned her MBA, and then took a leap to pursue executive coaching 10 years ago.

Since 2018, Danielle has been certified as a Vistage chair, launching and leading CEOs in peer group work.

Vistage is a membership community of CEOs, business owners and executives.

So you'll hear Danielle often refer to members in this episode and these Are the leaders she's been coaching in both group settings and individually.

Danielle was writing fiction when the idea of harnessing inspiration became compelling to her.

And that's where we start our conversation.

We talk about why the spark of inspiration matters, and it matters a lot.

We talk about the conditions that invite inspiration into our lives.

Danielle offers us specific and practical ways to create these conditions.

We also talk about the difference between inspiration and motivation, the difference between overwhelm and burnout, and how we can stay out of both of those states.

And we talk about how to notice what inspires you and how important it is to notice what inspires you.

It's a gift of clarity and purpose.

Danielle offers us a very particular kind of discipline that she talks about towards the end of our conversation.

That's really useful when you're seeking to change.

And it's actually a wonderful way to apply some of these ideas about inspiration.

If you're a person who has ever thought you have to wait to be inspired, and it's a passive feeling that is out of your control.

This episode will change your mind.

Enjoy my conversation with Danielle Baldwin.

So give us a little context and backdrop about you getting into coaching and finding yourself in the position to even have this curiosity.

And then a really studied reflection about inspiration.

Excellent.

So executive coaching was accidental.

Okay.

I feel like everything in life is like, oh, just kidding.

Look what you're gonna do.

Hey.

Yeah.

So I was working, like, corporate.

Corporate Danielle.

Right.

Worked in telecom on a strategy team.

My team was in Atlanta.

I live in sunny Diego.

I was commuting, and everything was breaking.

Okay.

So work was breaking.

I was on a team.

I did not.

Like, we were working on a project.

Like, work was bad.

My marriage was falling apart.

Yeah.

My body was falling apart.

So.

And I didn't want to let go of any of it.

And so the way that the world works or the universe works is when you are holding on too tightly to something, the universe will push you out of the plane.

Yeah.

Out you go, sis.

Yeah.

And in the moment it is.

You have a moment of exhilaration and then a moment of.

Then many moments of terror.

And so I found myself.

All of the labels that I had used to define myself, which were wife of executive at, like, all of these things no longer applied.

Yeah.

And I got to pick who I wanted to be again.

And the favorite.

My favorite part of being an executive was working with my people and developing them.

Yeah.

So I started doing, like, a little bit of executive coaching on the side.

And then somebody came to me and Said, have you heard of this company called Vistage?

And I was like, no, no, I'm good.

Never heard of.

Yeah, I.

Like, I don't know.

And they knew me right.

Well enough to know.

So I've been writing for a really long time and it's very important to me.

And that is one of the ways that we bond deeply.

Yes, yes.

Love it.

And somebody had the presence of mind to say, oh, it's like a reading critique group, except it's for CEOs and business owners.

And I was like, oh, well, yeah.

What an intriguing tagline for you.

Totally.

I was like, oh, well, I know how reading critique groups have, like, wildly informed my work over time.

So, yeah, that's how I got into coaching.

And then how the book came about was also by accident.

So I was happily working on a fiction project.

Think like Three Billboards meets Crash, centered around the question of the questions that fail us.

So it's this like awesome fiction project.

I'm like, yes, yes, there is.

Yeah.

And I was in a one to one with one of my members.

Yeah.

It's the middle of Pandemic.

It was July, so everybody's still at their kitchen table, still trying to like, figure all this stuff out.

So he tells me this story and he's like, d. He's like, I did skip levels with all my employees, so I had them meet with their direct manager.

And I asked.

We asked them these three questions.

Like, do you understand your role?

Do you understand where the company is headed?

And like, how are you feeling?

Yeah.

And he was like, so to a person.

They answered, yes, yes.

And motivated.

And I was like, I got you, dude.

Like, what?

And he's like, so then I sat down with all the employees and I asked.

We went through a one to one and I asked them the same three questions.

And they answered, yes, yes.

And then they said, inspire.

Yeah.

And I was like, huh?

He's like, so why would that be?

And I'm like, huh, I'm not quite sure.

And then he was like, well, what is inspiration anyway?

And I was like, what?

Night Night Fiction.

Totally, totally.

Goodbye.

Did you do that?

Did you.

Did you put the.

Did you put the fiction aside?

Oh, girl, I am stubborn.

So I would like drag that fiction out and it would be like.

Yeah.

And I'm like, no, no, come on, let's go play with this.

And it was like, yeah.

And then I would pull the book out on inspiration and it was like, yes.

So how do you go about it?

Did you.

Did you go about it first with Your own reflections or research?

Yeah, I did.

So for me I. I love Ryan Holiday.

Do you love Ron?

Of course Ryan.

I can totally see how you would love him though.

I feel like you, you were destined.

For him when you were like was little known fact.

I actually worked with him for a year way, way back in the day when I was still in the corporate world and like this very side weird project.

But in any case I.

He is a lovely human and I his work because.

So Ryan, note cards and normally I don't note card but I decided I would start with that.

So I started with note cards and like the feeling of inspiration and moments in which I remembered being inspired and then I just started like Google Scholaring like every study like these two guys, Thrash and Elliot have done most of the work from a psychological perspective on inspiration, read a ton of their stuff and then started piecing together what the book was.

Did it surprise you initially when you were looking at the research and what the elements are?

Some of it was surprising.

One of the things that was surprising about the writing process is I am accustomed to in fiction the narrative will move underneath your feet.

Yes.

So you will think the storyline is going in a certain way and it like takes this like crazy right hand turn.

I didn't think that would happen with non fiction.

And it did.

Yes.

So one of the things there are these three precursor states to inspiration which I can talk about later.

And I thought that it was like a stool, like a three legged stool.

And then the more I realized it's not.

It's actually like a.

It's there are these steps that build on each other.

Yeah.

Which was surprising to me because you.

Need one to open the door to the other.

Yeah.

It's way more helpful to have the first than to have the second.

Yes.

To get to the third.

Yes.

Can they live independently?

They can, but it's way, way more likely that the second or third one's going to show up if the first or second's already in place.

And how did you come to that?

Is that through lived experience and talking to your clients alongside research?

It was, it was.

And then looking at these story.

I read lots and lots and lots of stories of people that people found inspiring.

Like starting with Victor Frankl.

Right.

Of course.

I would say like probably the most inspirational story that most people think of when they think of inspiration.

Yeah.

And then really like living with that concept.

And as I was writing the book I was like wow.

Yeah.

No, I don't think they're into.

They don't Seem like they're that independent.

It's like this aperture that starts really wide and then gets, like, narrower and narrower.

Yes.

And maybe we should.

Maybe we should tell the people.

This is.

This is the part of your relationship research.

And.

And the main theme of the book is that you can't force inspiration.

You have to create the environment.

Is.

It's the word environment that you use.

Or.

Or.

Yeah.

I mean, environment totally works.

Yeah.

So from a psychological perspective, inspiration is defined by these three states.

So the first one is transcendence.

It's like that feeling of like.

Yeah.

Like I have this picture that I keep at my desk.

This is what, like, inspiration looks like to me.

It's so cool.

You know, it's like this.

There's this light and this openness to it.

The second one they call, like, evocation, which essentially means.

Yeah, it just.

It's not like, feel the dreams.

Like, you don't build it, and it comes.

You have to set the stage for it, but you can't force it.

You can't be like, paige, I'm gonna be inspired today right now.

Yeah.

And then the third one is called approach motivation, which in regular people terms essentially means, like, what I call inspired to versus inspired by.

So, like, it makes you want to go do something different?

Yes.

It makes you want to go be somebody different.

Yeah.

So that is what inspiration in its psychological frame is.

And when you talk to leaders, do you think that they know that they're doing this, or do you find that inspirational?

Leaders are doing it unconsciously?

Most are doing it unconsciously.

That's what I would think.

Yeah.

And then when.

And also, by the way, for listeners, and I've done this before when I've had executive coaches or kind of conversations that go into this realm of business or that.

It's, for me, listening.

It's also a family.

You know, I'm always inviting listeners to see their family life as an expression of leadership and teamwork.

And so, you know, I. I imagine for people running families or running teams or running groups or in organizations, when you bring consciousness to it, it elevates the whole thing, because inspiration matters.

I mean, it's.

It's, you know, one lot in one side.

It's like, well, maybe it doesn't matter because it's this thing that comes to us and we can't pushed for it, but it really is important.

Can you talk about that a little bit?

How it.

How essential it is to.

Yeah, I will frame it in a study that Bain Co. Did a few years ago.

That measured exactly this.

So they looked at employees and they kind of created like, a Maslow's hierarchy.

Yes.

With satisfied on the bottom.

And these are people that, like, felt safe in their job and everything was good.

And then engaged employees who felt like they had the tools they needed to be able to do what they needed to do, and then inspired employees up at the top.

And the way that they described it is, if a wall went up at work, what would each of these employees do?

And so what they found with satisfied employees is, like, they would stand around kind of talking about the wall and, like, problem solving.

Right.

Yeah.

And the engaged employees would, like, make a plan to, like, get through the wall, and an inspired employee will just, like, run through it.

Through the wall.

I love it.

Yeah.

So in real terms, what does that look like?

It looks like 250 times the level of productivity.

Wow.

When somebody is inspired by, like, the company's mission and values and also the leadership team, like, there's alignment there.

Yeah.

So that.

And that starts at the very beginning with employees, because if they, like, it's a good hiring practice.

Because if there's not, like, a shared sense of vision or purpose, you're never really going to be able to inspire them.

Right, Right.

You might get them, like, excited a little bit, but, like, that level of like, I'm running through the freaking wall.

Yes.

So it's important that there's.

That we're looking for that.

Yeah.

I work with a lot of fledgling businesses, and I find that even when you say to your one or two employees that you don't know exactly what the vision looks like, that can be inspiring, you know, so it's, like, revealing because I think some people are like, it has to be airtight or I have to.

And it gets so big, and it's like, know when you.

When you join in a group, it's evolving, but to language that you know and invite people into that process with you, I think can be very bonding.

It's.

It's like getting to the top of the triangle.

Getting to inspiration.

Yeah.

I think I have a group of small business owners, and there's this misnomer that, like, you have to, like.

I tell them, like, I don't know about.

For you, but for a lot.

Many people in that group, like, financials are, like, very overwhelming.

Oh, yeah.

For sure.

And they look at other people in the group, and there's a wealth manager in the group.

There's someone that runs a fractional CFO firm.

Right.

So there are people in the room that have this, like, strong financial acumen, and the other members will just get, like, kind of frustrated.

And I was like, do you think that they came out of the womb, like, knowing what was.

Like, do you think that that's true?

Like, they walked around when they were a toddler, like, hey, mom, like, look at the expenses.

Like, they learned it.

Yeah.

Like, you're gonna learn.

You're gonna learn how to do a mission and a vision and a value, and you're gonna learn financials.

And, like, no one knew it.

Yes.

We don't.

Like, it's cool.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, let the.

Like, I find with leaders, they're so good at giving grace to other people, and they're horrible at giving grace to themselves.

Yes.

Like, absolutely.

They can give grace out all.

Oh, yeah.

And we're good.

And then it comes to themselves, and they're like.

I was like, yeah, no, let's not.

Let's not.

Yeah.

And it doesn't.

When you get into yourself like that, when.

When you lay into yourself with that inner critic, it just completely robs you of inspiration because you're in the weeds, and it robs you of motivation.

You know, there's.

We talk about how those two are linked, because I think sometimes we get those confused, and we don't see how much they need to partner with each other.

They do.

I.

In the book, I call them the Wonder.

You remember the Wonder Twins?

Yeah, Wonder Twins.

That's a good title for the two of them.

Inspiration.

Motivation.

Yeah.

My brother was totally busting me.

He was like, were they really effective?

Like, he was a pail of water.

Like, really?

And I was like, well, you know, it's the analogy.

Go with it.

Yeah, totally.

But, yeah, like, motivation.

The easiest way that I describe motivation and inspiration is inspiration is the pull, and motivation is the push.

Yeah.

So in a moment in which a team has lost sight of, like, the why, that is when you need inspiration is when you need the pole.

Yeah.

When they're pretty clear on what, the why, and they can see the top of the mountain bird, they're, like, stuck in the mud.

That's when you need some motivation.

That's when you need a little bit of push.

Yeah.

Right.

But they work in tandem because we know by definition inspiration is fleeting.

Yeah.

Like, you're gonna get.

It's like.

It's why so many.

Like, I call it sparking greatness.

It is.

It's a spark.

It's a lightning bolt.

It's a firework.

Like, it's this, like, beautiful flash where everything you get this level of clarity and you're like, oh, okay.

I think it's a connection to your higher self and like your higher purpose.

Like you get these flashes of it and then you need the motivation to like, once you've seen it and the sky goes dark again.

Motivation is what lights you up to help get you back to what you saw.

Yes.

Is there a way for us to get more touch points with inspiration?

Yeah.

Yes.

So I mentioned before, there are these three precursor stuff and they are spaciousness.

And that is mental, physical, emotional.

Right.

So like when you go to a conference or a retreat and you're like, oh my gosh, I got all these great ideas, I'm so inspired.

Well, part of that is because you've created spaciousness in almost every sense of the world.

Word from your normal world.

Right.

So you are okay that you're not replying to texts or emails or your phone is on silent and your kids know like, hey, mom's not available right now.

Yeah.

Physically, normally you're in a different place.

Right.

You're not at your house, you're at a retreat center, you're at a conference center, you're at a hotel, whatever.

And you have given yourself permission to have spaciousness from your world.

You're like, well, I'm at this conference, while I'm at this retreat, I'm at this training.

So the first one is kind of creating the sense of spaciousness.

The second one is stillness.

So once we have the spaciousness, the stillness isn't necessarily physical.

Yeah.

It's mental.

Right.

So some people can get very still by running.

Yes.

Or gardening or playing guitar or doing a jigsaw puzzle or crafting or.

Right.

It's like those moments are when you're.

You lose track of time.

And the best activities to get stillness are the ones that you're doing for being sake and not for doing sake.

Yeah.

So reading.

Right.

Like if I'm reading something because I want to learn and I'm underlining and I'm taking notes, I'm reading with the purpose of learning.

Yeah.

But if I'm reading just to like lose myself, then I'm reading for the being state of that.

Yeah.

And that's where we are able to turn off our inner critic or the all of the processes and like narrow the 18 lanes of highway information in our brains, like down to like two.

Yeah.

Yes.

And then the third one is self forgetfulness.

And that is when we take that spotlight that we have trained on ourselves 90 of the time.

Yes.

Not in an ego way.

But it's like, like what we were talking about earlier this morning before we hit record.

Like, oh my gosh, it's so crazy.

Run it.

Like, Here are the 10 more things that I need to do to.

Right.

Yeah.

And swinging that spotlight out.

Yes.

So self forgetfulness we have most often in like community.

And community can be like a group of CEOs or friends or like getting together for a reunion with your girls.

Yeah.

Or it can be a concert, or it can be a 12 step program, or it can be a writing group or a gardening group or an hr.

I mean, they're like all these different ways the community shows up.

And that can be a really good way to like kick in the.

The self forgetfulness.

Yeah, I.

That one was really intriguing to me when you wrote about that.

And it made me pause and think where I get self forgetfulness, the experience of it.

And I loved how you brought up community.

Because I think it's connection, you know, because then I always say the biggest energy wins, which is not my saying.

My therapist taught me this, my beloved therapist, Greg, years ago.

And it's.

It's one of those tenants, you know, it comes up in all of the work that we do, but I return to it often.

And when the biggest energy is about connection, then you're set up to forget yourself because you're not so self conscious.

And.

And I'll do it sometimes walking into a new place or a dinner party where I don't know everybody, or if I'm used to going places with my husband, Boyd, and maybe I'm going somewhere without him.

I recently went to a wedding without him.

He was out of town.

And it's the first time I've gone to a wedding solo, maybe ever.

Because when we were younger, we knew the people getting married.

And this is one of my neighbors, the daughter of my next door neighbor getting married.

And I love this family, but I really don't know their extended family and I don't know their extended friend group.

I just know them.

And I wanted to see the bride.

And I had to really talk myself into connecting.

Like deciding when I walked into that reception, I am here for connecting with the bride's friends, the mother of the bride, the father of the bride, who is important to them, and get out of my head.

Yeah.

And there were moments I was able to do that, and then there were other moments where I was self conscious, but it has to be intentional.

And I find that that intention to connect is the portal to being able to let yourself just, oh, I can Relax now.

I'm not thinking about if I'm wearing the right thing or if I'm saying the right thing.

And it's such a liberating feeling.

It's so relaxing.

It is, it's so.

I mean, I think we don't realize how often we're in our heads and like listening to the mental chatter or thinking about, you know, I have these things or to your point, like going to a wedding and being like, I don't know anybody here and I'm wondering if I'm wearing the right thing, if I'm too dressy, if I'm not dressy enough or whatever else.

And it is, it's so liberating to get like, it's like a little bit of a vacation from yourself.

Yes.

Hey, I'm going on vacation away from you, right?

Yeah.

And did that one surprise you when that came up in your research?

Yes and no.

Yeah, like I never, um.

It's the one state of being that people are the most curious about.

Yes.

I, I found myself, I'm curious right now in this moment.

But I, even in reading about it, I was curious.

I would have never predicted that or I don't even think of that term.

You know, I don't even think of a self forgetting as a term.

I think of like self honoring or self centered in a good way.

I often think of higher self centered, you know, like you need to center on what is best for you in the bigger way.

But I don't think of self forgetting.

So it's a really intriguing phrase even.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

It's not mine.

Yeah, it's not mine.

It is the, like one of the.

When we talk about Thrash and Elliot, it's one of the things that they talk about.

Yeah, but it is, it's just so when I think about the moments in which I have inspiration.

Like before, you know, when I was in that conversation with Brenton and then having that like the, the fiction project that I was working on before.

I was listening to.

I was totally engrossed.

Do you ever listen to Krista Tippett.

On Yes, I love her.

Oh my gosh, she.

Whatever.

And so this woman had introduced her, I'd had actually through Brenton.

I mean, is he the source of all inspiration?

Just kidding.

Hi, Brinton.

Yes, he is.

For this project.

This project.

He had introduced me to this woman and I had had coffee with her and she had talked about on being and she was like, I think you would really like this podcast.

So I am driving home, listening to that podcast and I was like.

And she mentions this quote from Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance.

And she mentioned the questions that fail us.

And I literally pulled off the road, I was like, oh my gosh.

Or when I'm at.

I'm on the board of a nonprofit that supports transitioning homeless.

Yeah.

And I have deep moments of inspiration when I am at a board meeting or we're hearing a story of a family that we.

Because that organization essentially fully furnishes a home for a family or a veteran or somebody that's recently transitioned from homelessness.

Because often when they get a place to live, they have enough money to cover rent and utilities and food, but they don't have any extra to like furnish.

So we come in and it's like the best kind of like diy, Right?

Totally.

And I think about our clients there and it's wildly inspiring.

Or I'll be at a concert.

Like I, I know you and I like from our 18 year old roots.

Right.

Like, love the music.

And I get wildly inspired there.

I guess I get inspired by trees.

It sounds ridiculous.

Oh, I get so inspired by trees.

I'm sure I've talked about that on this podcast for my clients.

100%.

It's like, I know what you're going to tell me.

Go put my hands on a tree.

Yeah.

Or go sit next to a tree.

I think trees are absolutely amazing.

I mean, we know this now that we're studying them more.

I mean, they're really incredible.

There's a whole other thing about them that's, that's peaceful and inviting and the fact that their roots and then their roots are connected and they all thrive together.

I mean, they're really a model for what it could be for us getting through all the seasons.

You know, I agree.

I tell people, trees are my people.

I do.

I feel like they're my people.

Right.

Like trees are my people.

And it's hysterical because I live in Southern California where I'm like, our trees are so lame.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that this self forgetfulness, like, really allows us to detach and be like, open.

Yes.

New ideas.

And there's this big five personality trait assessment that's often used in psychology.

And one of them is, one of the big five is openness.

And then it's split into all these subcategories.

And so one of the, the traits that's highly correlated with inspiration is openness to aesthetics.

So people that are like, love art, love music, like love nature or beauty, because we get this sense of awe Right.

From those Things.

And we again, can flip.

The spotlight is not flipping out necessarily to a person or a group.

Yeah.

But to this thing outside ourselves that we can appreciate.

Yeah.

Is another really great way for self forgetfulness.

And the other thing that I found that as a very high introvert, they were like, extroverts are more likely to be inspired.

And I was like, boo.

Yeah.

Is that true?

It doesn't feel true to me.

I.

If we are to follow the studies and the work that has been done in theory.

Yes.

I am going to like plant my flag as the high introvert who feels wildly inspired on the regular.

That I don't think that's true.

Yes.

The data does not support my view.

Your experience either.

Yes.

Yes.

I thought it was so interesting when you were talking about the man who ran the Four Minute Mile.

Roger.

Is it Banister?

Okay.

That made me think what inspires you is so personal that then it becomes a channel for self knowledge, which, you know, I mean, that's what this whole podcast is about, you know, bringing people on who have learned something about themselves and decided that they can live more aligned to their values.

And I think that's such a huge part of fulfillment in every way.

So to then take inventory of your inspiration and the things that don't inspire you but inspire someone else, like your partner or your colleague or your friend.

Get curious about that.

Because the man running the Four Minute Mile does not inspire me.

But I love that he broke the record.

But I don't have like physical goals like that.

But I remember when Bernee Brown did her power of vulnerability talk.

And I had had kids in 2009, so I think it was like right around there.

Maybe I.

My babies were like a year, so I was really in flux with my career.

Yeah.

And I just remember listening to that TED Talk and having this whole mind opening of like, oh, I can teach from storytelling.

And she's from Texas and she's relatable and she has that quality of being very grounded in her research and really loving academia and knowledge, but also just human and willing to be funny and just willing to tell her truth.

And that to me at the time was like, oh, I could do it that way.

Like if I went on my own and coaching and helping people, I can do it through storytelling and relating my own personal stories to help someone else in theirs.

But I really did not have a model for that before her work.

And I know her work has shifted now and she's more in the leadership space and consulting.

But at that moment, it's like mentioning your own therapy experience and mentioning, like, arguments with your husband over closing the refrigerator door.

I'm like, oh, I can.

I can see now.

And that is inspiration.

When you were talking about it in the book, the root of it being connected to breath and breathing life into something.

That is what I felt in that moment.

I mean, I've had a lot of moments, but as it relates to work, and I know a lot of these listeners will know Brene Brown's work in that way.

It's like, oh, that resonates with me.

My husband could watch that TED Talk and not fall asleep during it.

I mean, not.

He respects Brene Brown because now he knows her.

Because now I've made him know her.

But he's gonna.

Yeah, he is, like, weeping over Radiohead's album.

You know, when.

Radiohead.

What was that big album?

My Memory.

I can see the COVID of it.

Same, same.

It'll come to us.

But I remember when he first listened to that, the cut of that album, he was so inspired.

He was just on another.

It just.

His mind was completely captivated in a way.

So I love that exercise for people, you know, taking inventory of really what blows your mind and in a specific way, let that connect you to what you value.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think, like, that is.

That description of you watching Brene's TED Talk is exactly.

That is.

That is a moment of inspiration.

Right.

Like, the world falls away.

You have complete clarity of like, oh, my gosh, I can be this.

Right.

It's like, why Robert Bannister is.

Is inspiring for people that are marathoners or engaging in some sort of physical challenge.

Like, it's that moment where hope becomes faith.

Yeah.

Like, oh, I wonder.

And then you're like, oh, my gosh, I can do that.

Yeah, I. I could do that.

Yeah.

So it's like that connection with, like, this higher purpose for you.

Like, Boyd, we know, is like this wildly talented musician.

Right.

So it makes sense that in the moment of him listening to this album, that that is like, yeah, you know, opens up all this inspiration for him.

And we know, like, the deep work that you do with women and with leaders and business owners, like, it makes total sense that you have this moment with Brene.

Yeah.

So good.

So how do you support someone if they're.

If they don't feel inspired?

I mean, I'm sure this is a part of your work.

Like, is it fear?

Is it self doubt?

Talk to us about getting, you know, the blocks, the barriers.

What do you find people up against to try to get Their minds to be open.

If you were wondering if someone writing a book on inspiration and motivation could become wildly uninspired and demotivated, the answer to that is yes.

Well, that's a good.

Take us there.

Take us to your.

Midway through.

Oh, my God.

It's always the hardest.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think where I see so many people, like Most of my CEOs and executives are in overwhelm mostly.

Okay.

Or a lot of them got to burnout post just coming out of the pandemic because they had been holding an organization and holding it down at home and like, holding all the things for all the people.

And so, you know, overwhelm is like, I've got like a coffee, I've got the dog leash, I've got keys, I've got groceries, and I am like, careening around on the sidewalk.

And like, burnout is like, I hit the pavement.

Yeah.

And I don't care.

That that was a big distinction for me because I've experienced both of those same.

That quality of apathy.

I have really felt that, like, I do not care.

Yeah.

And I think that's a.

For people listening, that's a big difference between being overwhelmed with the amount on your plate, you know, and stressed out.

And maybe when you're overwhelmed, you space out and scroll too much, but you still.

There's still a part of you that wants to go back and do something when you're burnout.

You're like, I'm out.

Literally burn out.

Bye.

Bye.

Yeah.

Okay.

So you're on the phone, you're noticing they're in overwhelm.

This is at the time you're getting into inspiration.

You're post Covid.

How do you help them back into a state of openness?

So it's about discipline in this kind of really weird way.

Yeah.

So the first thing that I notice is we have to.

I know I mentioned this earlier in terms of the steps like closing the aperture, but we have to do it with our time.

Okay.

So it happens when you're an overwhelm or burnout is you are so open, you are so boundaryless.

Like, you have so many inputs coming in.

Yes.

So whether it's email, assuming you are the lucky person that has one email address, who even has that?

Right.

We've got all the forms of social media, We've got all the forms of news, We've got text messages and WhatsApp and Slack and Microsoft Teams.

And then so we have all of these inputs that I always feel so old.

Things like we didn't used to have now.

I feel the same way, but it's so.

I think without that context, it's true.

And I think we don't give ourselves enough grace.

Like, it's real.

It's.

It's like what you said earlier, that the voice, the inner critic, and how leaders are.

Are full of grace for other people, but not necessarily, you know, full of forgiveness for themselves.

And I think it's because of what you just said.

The context of information and all the open channels, it's totally new territory.

And we act like we should know how to do this.

Totally.

It's.

It's.

I totally agree.

And it's so weird to observe.

I was just traveling for the past 24 hours before I'm speaking to you.

Like, to look at people, like, scrolling.

On their phones in the airport, like, video after video, like, just to observe it.

And then I go sit down at my gate, and what do I do?

Yeah, I scroll and I'm like, sending cat videos to a friend from high school who I love.

I love doing that.

But I mean, it's just a weird.

Like, you're in it.

It's like, information.

Do I really need to be looking at all of these opinions and videos?

And I don't even know what it is.

Like, what am I even doing?

Totally.

Anyway.

Totally.

So, yeah, I understand that.

Yes.

The channels are open.

I'm with you.

Channels are open.

Your nervous system is blown.

Yeah, blown.

Like, you are so fried.

You are crispy.

Right?

Yeah.

And so it starts with having, like, some discipline around.

Do you need notifications on for that?

Right.

Like, what can you cut out from an input perspective?

Yeah, part of it is what.

I had a member who taught me this phrase a few years ago that I love.

It's popping your helium hand.

Okay, tell us more.

Like, she tells this story.

So she is the CEO of her company that she runs with her husband, and she does a lot of volunteer work.

She's got kids that have sports.

Right.

So many people can.

Can think about that.

And so she is.

She's on several industry boards.

So she's doing work in the industry.

She's running a company.

She's a very active mom.

She's active in the community.

And she's at the PTA meeting and they're talking about the gala for that year.

Yeah.

And the executive director is like, so, you know, we're looking for somebody to take charge of the gala this year.

And I have had the conversation with this member about how overwhelmed and burnt out she is.

And she was like, wouldn't you know it?

Out of the corner of my eye, I see this hand go up, and then I realize, like this.

And then I realized it's my freaking hand.

Yeah, it's my hand.

And, like, they are.

Our hands just, like, float up in these moments when.

Because we're used to being the helper and we're used.

Right.

Like, I'll lean in, I'll help out.

Oh, does somebody need help?

Like, I can do that.

And I'm not saying don't help people.

Yes.

But if you can take a moment before.

If you can, like, pop the helium hand or ask yourself a question.

If you are the person that, like, signs up for all the things.

Things.

Yeah.

Whether it's from fomo.

Like, I'm not even going to get into the why.

That'll take us a whole another hour.

Right.

But let's say you're the person that signs up for the things.

If you can just ask yourself or commit to yourself that if somebody asks you for something, you give yourself, hey, I so appreciate the ask.

I need to go back and take a look to see if that fits based on what's going on for me.

Yeah.

And at least give yourself time.

Yes.

You can.

At least give yourself time.

I'm going to be so much happier than if you're like, oh, I can do it.

Like, yeah.

Even writing it down on a card.

Like, having the language for.

No.

I had a guest on named Amy Wilson who wrote a collection of essays called Happy to Help she, Episode one, Season two, and she talks about that moment that you just described with your client, the helium hand, and she talks about the discomfort.

So it's what.

What it made me think of is popping the helium hand is uncomfortable.

And so we have to really breathe through that moment and live, like, get to the other side of it.

Absolutely.

That's a powerful moment.

I think a lot of people struggle with that moment.

I struggle with wanting to be so convenient for people.

Oh, I'll move this appointment.

I can fit this in.

I like it in to the point where it doesn't even occur to me to.

To push something.

I just had a. I can't remember what kind of doctor's appointment it was.

I'm drawing a blank.

But I've done a lot of doctor's appointments at the end of the year just to, like, be ready for, you know, a new year.

And we're recording at the end of a year.

And it did not occur to me until I was so stacked that day that the only thing I could move Was, was the doctors visit and then I called the office and I had to breathe through the receptionist like answering the phone.

And I was so worried that it was going to be inconvenient or she was going to have a bad attitude about it.

And she was like, sure, what day do you need?

But, but it didn't occur to me until it was like the last resort option.

It's just knowing yourself.

And I, I think as I get older I really realize how much I struggle with that moment of like, this might be inconvenient or uncomfortable for you, but it's what I need.

And I think the difference is that I never even knew what I needed before.

At least now I'm noticing, oh, I think I need something and I'm making it more convenient for you.

But that's years of not even knowing what I needed.

Does that track, does that make sense?

It totally does.

Like I just had a one on one yesterday with a member who's CEO is getting ready to sell the business and for tax purposes and like the look of the p. L Wanted to wait to pay out this person's bonus and was like, hey, you know, are you okay with that?

And the person's like yeah, I'm fine with it.

And then in our one to one the member was like, we had a lot of like expenses come up last minute that we weren't anticipating and it might impact our holidays because we just had this outflow of cash and it all kind of hit at once.

It was this tsunami.

And then the question was like, well, why wouldn't you go back to the CEO and be like, hey, I don't need all of the bonus but I actually do need part of it.

And that hadn't even.

He was, he was just like, what?

And I was like, go ask for your money, man.

Like you are doing that.

That person, that money is owed to you in theory, right?

Like, yeah, not getting weird about it, but like it's something that would be paid in this year.

Yeah.

Right.

And so you are doing a favor by saying, I don't have any issue delaying.

So instead of saying I don't have any issue, let me my family be put out for the holidays, you would just go back and say, hey, I miscalculated.

I actually need part of that and you don't have to pay me all of it.

Right.

I just need this amount in order to be able to, you know, make this easy.

Yes.

But like we are so.

And he like one of the things of my goals for him in 2026 is.

He is literally the bottom rung of the ladder.

Yeah.

And I was like, can we just move you up a few?

Yes.

Yes.

And I think the thing, Paige, like, so many people think, like, when I talk about spaciousness, the thing that's irritating about it is, like, it has to be a habit.

Tell me more about that.

So I call.

I call it like flexible discipline.

Okay.

So I don't need you to spend.

Like, we think, like, oh, we're just going to do this retreat and we're going to recover and then we go back to our normal lives and we're like wildly over programmed and we don't have any space and our helium hand is active and we're doing all of these things.

Things.

But if we can build in, like, spaciousness and it doesn't need to be like an hour a day.

Like, if I can get you to, like, this member in particular loves archery.

Like, if I can get you out on an archery range, like on a break.

Yeah.

Or like, if you love reading and I can get you 15 minutes in a chair of reading where we just start to create, like this spaciousness and you feeling okay.

Because what happens is when we get overblown, like, we think that we're, like doing this great thing and we show up crappy.

Yeah.

Yeah, we do.

And so all this help and love and we're doing it for all these other people and we're not showing up.

Yeah.

Because we're empty.

So, like, we feel like it's this like hugely self selfish thing and it's not.

Yeah.

Like you're gonna show up better.

Yes.

If you can take the time and.

And it doesn't have to be like, you don't have to be on the archery range every day.

Like, I have another member that's like a huge swimmer.

I'm like, I don't need you in the pool every day.

I need you maybe to like, walk for an extra 10 minutes this day.

Yeah.

And I want you to do a jigsaw.

Like, so the flexible discipline is the discipline of getting something on the books daily or every other day.

And then it can look like however you want it to look like.

And it's not going to look the same every day.

And it doesn't have to be at the same time and it doesn't have to be the same thing.

Yeah.

But it's like this practice around creating spaciousness so that as that gets bigger, you can drop into stillness and the moments of inspiration that you are desperately looking for will come.

Yeah.

Like Shoeless Joe Jackson will walk out of the cornfield, but if you don't build the field, he's like, wandering around in the corn.

Yeah.

Like, give him a field.

Yeah.

And that's what you were talking about earlier with once you have spaciousness, you have stillness.

So it is so interesting, like the peop.

You know, just like giving ourselves permission for that.

Because the other thing is, and I tell my members this all the time, as you move up in an organization, the level of stillness, time that you will need to tackle the challenges that are in front of you is going to increase.

Yeah.

Because you need to access that level of thinking.

Yes.

Like, do you know Doris Kearns Goodwin?

Are you familiar with her?

I don't think so.

She is a historian.

She wrote a Pulitzer winning book called Team of Rivals, but that is not the one I'm talking about.

It's brilliant.

It's about Lincoln and his Cabinet.

Whatever.

So she wrote this other book.

Yeah.

Called Leadership in Turbulent Times, and she compared the presidencies of both Roosevelts, Lincoln and lbj.

I think she actually even worked for lbj.

So she.

He's in all the books.

And basically what she said and what she pointed out in these books is all four of those presidents had, like, crazy stuff going on.

Right.

During their presidency.

And all four of them were very clear on the fact that they needed time away.

Yes.

In order to be able to access their highest and best thinking, to then bring it back to very turbulent times and situations.

So, you know, like Teddy Roosevelt's, like, cruising around on his horse in the badlands.

Right.

Like, these are where, you know, LBJ is off on his ranch in Texas.

So these are the, like, we see these, like, figureheads, and even they understood that we need spaciousness.

Yes.

Yeah.

So, like, if they can do it, and they were like leaders of the.

Free world, like, we can do it, too.

We can do it.

Yeah.

I think about that so much in relationship, you know, helping people in their marriage or a relationship with a boss or relationship with a teenager.

You have to take time away to get your thoughts clear.

I mean, I think sometimes we jump into it and it's like.

It's like what you were saying, motivation, you know, you're like, motivated.

Because I've got to say this thing and I have to prove that my side is right and they have to understand me.

Or in the parenting domain, it's like, I've got to draw the line and I have to tell the kid and I have to instill this value in the kid and Sometimes the answer is to go journal, you know, and figure out what your point of view is and just be with it.

Because oftentimes the relationship needs space instead of you jumping into it.

It needs to evolve, it needs to change, and it's.

That's a discipline.

And I think that's a.

We have to have compassion for ourselves in that moment because it's more comfortable to maybe be in action and it's less comfortable to be trusting the whole scenario, trust the whole situation.

Take the space, get stuck still, and give it a little breathing room.

Literally breathe life into it.

And then you get inspired by your own understanding of something.

Yeah, I think that's totally true.

I, like, we talk a lot about the fact there are very few conversations that must be had in one sitting if somebody is dying.

Yes.

Then that would be an example where, like, you have to say what you need to say.

All of it right now.

Right.

Because that person is in the process of transitioning.

But so often we get caught up exactly in that and like, oh, my gosh, I have to say it right now, and this is the only chance that I'm going to be able to.

Like, that's just not true.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, the tough conversations, the difficult conversations, like, we did.

Like, it's a process.

Like, we can work through them a little bit at a time.

Yes.

I love how you talked about resilience towards the end when you were talking about the aspects of inspirational stories.

Resilience isn't a single moment.

It's a pattern in a posture.

I think that's so key with what you're describing.

You don't have to do it in one conversation.

You don't have to do the heavy lift, heroic moment.

It's small moments of showing up.

Because it's like, when we think of resilience, it isn't, of course, like, oh, my gosh, the woman that lifts the car off of her baby.

Yeah.

But when we think about things that really inspire us, it's like the people that come back over and over and over and over again.

Right.

Whether it's like, on social media, do you see, like, an influencer who's, like, losing weight.

Right.

And they're working really hard to get a healthy body or a healthy lifestyle for them.

And you see them over and over, like, every day.

The people that are like, here's my workout today.

Here's my workout today.

Like, that is wild.

That is dedication.

It's resilience.

Yeah, I loved that.

I loved that idea.

And there's so much unnoticed Unspoken, unacknowledged work in just being a human being.

Oh my gosh.

I mean everything.

Just making eye contact with a person, you know, at the coffee shop or holding the door for someone, you know, it just.

We think the world is falling apart.

But then you have all these moments.

People are doing moments like that all day long and you have no idea if their body's in pain.

You have no idea if someone they love is dying.

You have no idea if they can make their payroll or their car payment and they're holding the door for you.

You know, it's beautiful to.

In fact, I get inspired by that.

I really get inspired by interactions with strangers and humanity.

Like the grace and the love and kindness that just humans show to one another.

I could go a whole day and just observe that.

Yeah.

Will you tell us if writing this book has connected you more deeply to inspiration?

Are you finding that you're walking your talk and at least you know, you know what to do?

I guess when you hit your blocks creates.

I do.

I know you journal.

We both are big journalers.

I. I'm a sporadic journaler.

Yeah.

I.

The thing.

So it's really funny.

And I told him this was going to happen.

So I was on a walk with my neighbor Dave this morning and his dog White and we were talking about.

I'd recently had a conversation with a friend.

So this week is the week for listeners.

It's the week before the holidays.

I'm like, like many of us, we are sprinting into like slide into the holidays, right?

Yeah.

So I had a friend who was telling me like you're really over programmed and you're so busy and la la la la la.

And I'm feeling overwhelmed and all this other stuff.

And like I was talking to Dave like it's not a. I know it was came from a place of love, but in a moment when you're in overwhelm, when somebody's like, you're an overwhelm.

I'm like, yeah, yeah, I got, I got you right.

He's like, well, isn't it funny?

Because he was like, well, are you overwhelmed throughout the year?

And I was like, well, this year it was like my life plus book.

So a little bit.

And he's like, isn't it so funny that you wrote this book about like people finding spaciousness and like what have you done for yourself this week?

And I was like, oh, Dave.

That'S always how it is though.

That's always how it is.

Totally.

Yeah.

So it is.

It's about one of the beautiful things.

I don't know if you find this, too, about being a coach is that the mirror is constantly held up 100%.

I think about this all the time.

Like, the people with whom you are working, whether it's one on one in a group, anything.

The podcast guests, they say something, and you're like, that is exactly what I'm dealing with right now.

It's.

It's so crazy and beautiful.

It is.

It is.

And, like, humbling also.

And you're like, yeah, that in me.

Yeah.

So it is.

Like, I tell my members all the time, like, I, to a person, have not yet had a member in December.

I mean, I've done.

I will do, I don't know, upward, like, 35, 36 ones this month yet.

Male, female, old, young, big company, little, what does not matter.

Everybody is like, right?

And so I say, like, where are we creating space?

And then, yet, you know, it takes Dave being like, so.

So d. Where's your space?

Like, damn it, Jim.

So flexible discipline.

Flexible discipline you got here.

We both been.

This hour has been so lovely.

We got gear.

We're in our home offices.

I love our home offices.

We're drinking beverages.

I love it.

So do you think you would take inspiration on a desert island if you only could take three virtues?

I was thinking about that when I put your book down.

I was like, I think I would take inspiration now, 100%.

And I think I would take courage, which is another thing that you talk about towards the end of the book, because courage is like the doorway to so many other.

If you have courage, then you can be patient.

If you have courage, then you could be resourceful.

But I, you know, I was like, oh, point taken.

Like, sparking greatness.

It really does make the case for inspiration in a way that's like, we can't live without it.

It's.

It's that important.

It is.

It is really important.

I had the opportunity when I was looking for blurbs for the book, I was reaching out to a lot of different people.

Yeah.

And so I had sent an email to Adam Grant and was like, why do you think people aren't covering this?

And, like, what are your thoughts?

And.

And he was just like, you know, from a business perspective and a leadership perspective, which is the lens through which I wrote the book.

He was like, you know, inspiration's kind of squishy.

Right.

And so it's hard to be able to convince a lot of, like, really, you know, left brain people.

Yeah.

Like, let's talk about inspiration.

And.

But it's so powerful.

Yes.

And it's very real.

And.

And, yeah, it's just like, lights us up and it just.

You can live a completely uninspired life and live a really beautiful one.

Yeah.

But so much more beautiful.

So tell me one of the.

The big gifts of this book.

What has it brought into your life?

Something that either you expected or surprised you.

So writing a book is, like, a labor of love.

Right.

And especially if you're like self publishing or hybrid publishing.

It's not like a financial.

Right.

We.

I do it.

And I think if you talk to most authors, they would say the same.

Like, I'm doing it for the impact.

Yeah.

And so.

So here's the crazy thing.

Like, you write this book and it hatches.

Right.

And you're like, oh, your hatchet's so beautiful.

Oh, I love you so much.

Right.

And then it's time, once it hatches, to leave the nest.

Yeah.

And so what happens?

You're like, oh, like, when it leaves the next.

What's going to happen?

Like, are you going to, like, flail on the ground, like, and just, like, flop around on there or are you going to fly?

And I've had a lot of moments where the book is flying.

Yeah.

And what that looks like is like, my freshman year college roommate.

Yeah.

Sent me an email based on.

Because I have a newsletter that goes out every week based on a newsletter and was like, this was amazing.

It helped me so much.

Yeah.

Right.

Or I heard from.

I got a text message yesterday from somebody who was like, I'm really loving this specific part of the book or this exercise really helped me, you know, so it's been like, I wrote it because I want.

I want it to help.

Like.

Yes.

Life isn't like.

Nobody ever said life was going to be easy.

Yeah.

But it's really beautiful, and it's made way more beautiful with inspiration.

And so, like, if I can bring more inspiration and more beauty to people and that openness to it and, like, those connections and those ahas and those.

Those blocks that were there that all of a sudden are cleared, even if it's just for a moment, it's like, that's why.

That's why we do it.

Yes.

And so I'm getting the feedback, like, from all these different corners of my life of people that this book is helping.

And it is, like, wildly inspiring for me.

Yes.

So it's like, the best thing ever.

Yes.

It's so.

It like.

Oh.

It's like, one of the reasons I love coaching is, like, when you See the light bulb and people are like, oh, yeah.

And I get, like unsolicited light bulbs every week from people.

And I'm like, ah, yeah.

Best thing ever.

I was walking Rosie yesterday and it.

The sun was just coming up and it was like hitting this tree full of, like, little birds and one kind of angry hummingbird.

But the way the light was hitting the leaves, it was like, so beautiful.

And then when we're present and I'm working on a keynote separately, and I had like this, like, in looking at the way the light was, like, hitting the curl of this leaf, I was like, oh, like, this is what the title of that keynote's gonna be.

It was like, the perfect moment.

But, like, I wasn't listening to a podcast, I wasn't listening to an audiobook.

I wasn't on the phone.

I wasn't like, yeah, the joy of giving yourself the spaciousness to take the dog on a walk.

And then the stillness when you're on the walk to, like, look up and be like, oh, my gosh, this tree.

And then.

And then these things just, like, come down and it's really.

Yeah, it's really amazing.

It's really inspiring.

I love the feeling of inspiration.

And after reading Sparking Greatness and having.

This time with Danielle, I love that.

I now understand inspiration can be intentional.

We can all be intentional in our pursuit of inspiration and use it as the powerful gateway to purpose, clarity, and presence that it is.

So here is our opportunity.

Spaciousness.

Where can you create more space in your life?

10 minutes here or there.

For me, it has a lot to do with putting away my phone and trying not to squeeze in a bunch of errands in between obligations.

Stillness.

How can you embrace stillness?

Maybe in a way you haven't tried before.

I know one of my habits I'm.

Implementing this year is a more consistent meditation practice.

I'm happy to meditate, and I can drop in and settle for many minutes, but I don't do it every day.

I'm curious about how I would feel if I did.

And I'm not starting with 10 minutes a day.

I'm starting with two.

And lastly, can you be more aware of the times you experience self forgetfulness?

We can't force self forgetfulness, but noticing the conditions gives us the awareness, and we can put ourselves in the position to potentially expand experience that state.

You know how you can eat something common like meat sauce or a hamburger or a slice of pizza, and sometimes every now and then, it's remarkably more delicious.

There's something about it that's unique.

It's got a certain flavor.

There's a secret ingredient.

That's what I think inspiration is to our lives.

It's a secret ingredient.

If you add it to your everyday life, it makes you way more productive, more curious and creative, and much more deeply connected to purpose and perspective.

It makes us more alive.

I love that Danielle's book Sparking Greatness makes inspiration an ingredient that is not so secret.

There's a way to invite it, cultivate it, and use it to live and lead fully.

And that way is beautifully and clearly outlined for us.

Thank you Danielle for bringing us this message.

There are frameworks, tools and practical exercises in this book that have really stuck with me and unlocked some much needed motivation that I'm using in my everyday life now.

Of course I loved this time with you.

It makes sense to me that you found success leading people to their presence and purpose because you bring presence and purpose to your own life.

I'm inspired by you and your work, as are many others, and I'm grateful for your voice, your words, your creativity and your big heart in this world.

Thank you for meeting me and our listeners here, sharing your journey with us with such honesty and authenticity, and reminding us what is actually available when we notice the trees and walk the dog with our eyes up.

You can find out more about Danielle in the show notes and order your copy of Sparking Greatness wherever books are sold.

Okay y', all, that's it for now.

I'll meet you here again soon.

Thanks to each of you for being.

Here and for listening.

I'm so grateful we get to share life in this way.

As always, full show notes are available@paigenolan.com podcast there you will find a full screen summary of the episode, timestamps and key takeaways, and any resources mentioned in our conversation.

If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love if you would leave me a rating and a review.

You can do that by visiting paige nolan.com forward/love your reviews.

Really do help people to discover the show.

And if you know someone specifically who would enjoy this episode, I'm so grateful to have you all share.

I'll meet you there with your friends.

Lastly, lastly, if you have any questions or comments, or if you would like to share any feedback with me, Please email to meetmethereagenolan.com I would love to hear from you.

Thank you to the team that makes this show possible.

Podcast Production and Marketing by North Node Podcast Network Music by Boyd McDonnell Cover Photography by Innis Casey okay y' all.

That's it for now.

I'll meet you you there again soon.