S2E4: Career, Motherhood, and Reinvention: JoAnne Lord’s Journey to Sustainable Fashion

JoAnne Lord:00:01

I love being a mom. I love being a wife. I really do love to do it all, but I really love my career and, you know, I really needed my career. It defined me, you know, it really defined me. And it was a defining moment to have been able to kind of climb that corporate ladder and be a vice president of merchandising. I was over all of non apparel at the time, which was about $100 million business. And so for the first couple of years, going back after I had Mali, it was great. I mean, Jeff and I, he had a corporate career, but he was traveling a lot, I was traveling a lot. We were very fortunate that we had incredible, incredible help. Family would come when they could, but we had a full time nanny that was with us Monday through Friday.

Paige Nolan:00:45

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:00:46

And for the first couple of years, it was really perfect. It's ironic how this happened. When Mali started preschool. That is when I felt like I had a little bit of like an identity crisis. I mean, do I want to continue having this full time amazing corporate career or did I feel like I needed to be more involved and kind of have more flexibility to be able to volunteer while she was in preschool?

Paige Nolan:01:17

Hi, I'm Paige Nolan. Welcome to I'll Meet yout There. A place where heart centered conversations are everything. Living what matters is the truest thing and sharing the journey is the best. Hi everyone and welcome back. Today my conversation is with a woman who is very much living a life she loves. She's passionate and driven in her career. She's devoted to her family, she adores her friends. She's fully engaged in her community life and she finds a way to take care of herself. My guest today is my friend, Joanne Wanarashu Lord. I invited her here to talk about her journey in creating this life that she loves. Especially a life that includes balancing her passion for work and her devotion to family. Joanne is a wife and a mom. She's married to Jeff and they have two teenage daughters named Mali and Lili. Mali + Lili is also the name of the functional, high quality, cruelty free handbag line that Joanne launched in 2017. She still runs that business today to much success. Mali + Lili bags are in Nordstrom's Anthropologie and they've made Oprah's favorite things list. We start our conversation with Joanne's upbringing in small town Washington state. You'll hear what messages she got from her immigrant parents, her mom from the Philippines, her dad from Thailand, and how her childhood home influenced her career path and the life she's built with her family here in la, we talk about Joanne's corporate background and how her experience in the corporate world has actually informed her success as an entrepreneur. She started her career in San Francisco on the wholesale side of the fashion business, and then after some time, made her way into the retail buying world. She moved up the corporate ladder, starting as a buyer, evolving into merchandise management roles, and ultimately to the VP of merchandising. She's worked for companies including Urban Outfitters, Guess by Marciano, Bebe, and New York and Company. I'm always interested in how people initiate change, professionally and personally. In this episode, Jo describes one of her life defining moments, A moment in her personal life that initiated a serious pivot in her professional one. We talk about opportunity, the hustle, teamwork. We talk about mentors and bad bosses, the way family life shifts and how that impacts our career choices, especially as women. And we talk about the one skill that Joanne says is at the center of her ability to balance her work life with her family and social life. Joanne shares her latest inspiration and what's motivating her these days. And she also shares that this life that she loves is not perfect, but it's something she's worked hard to experience and she wants to enjoy all of it. I know this to be true. Joanne fully enjoys her life. She lives her lessons, and she stays aligned with what is true to her. And by sharing how she does it, it gives us permission to find our way to do it, too. Enjoy this conversation with my friend, Joanne Lord. Okay, so we're heading to Mali + Lili. That's like the overarching. You know, where we're heading in this conversation is I want to talk about the brand. I want to talk about you doing the brave thing and going out on your own. And I know we have listeners who will really resonate with that story. But before we get to that, I really love to start with messages from childhood and how you grew up and if creativity was a part of your home life. And kind of the messages that you got about family life, career, and kind of who you wanted to be. You know, when you were little, did you have a dream of. Of anything about this life that you're living now? Yes.

JoAnne Lord:05:16

Okay. Well, you know, I grew up in a small town in Eastern Washington state, and my parents are both immigrants, so my mom from the Philippines and my dad from Thailand. They're both in the medical field. My dad is a retired physic and my mom was a retired nurse. And so, you know, they moved to the US because they Wanted better education, and they really wanted to achieve the American dream. So us, myself, my brother, my sister being raised in small town eastern Washington, the message was always around education.

Paige Nolan:05:49

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:05:50

So education was key. Education so important. But then there was also a big message from my dad that I will never forget because I think he started telling me this when I was in elementary school, probably, I don't know, third grade, fourth grade, where we'd be getting ready in the morning. He would take me to school every morning and he would say things to me like Ann. He would call me Ann. My mom was Josie, so she was Joe.

Paige Nolan:06:12

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:06:13

So I was Ann. And so it was Ann. You can never depend on anyone else to take care of you except for yourself. And so I'm, you know, 10 years old thinking, okay, dad, whatever. I don't really know what this means, but those words always stuck with me. And I joke with him today when I talk to him. He doesn't really remember saying this to me. Yeah, but those, those words were so impactful. They stuck with me all these years. And so I think that that was a huge part of why I've been so driven throughout my career, through education, through college, but really throughout my career was I knew that I had to take care of myself and meaning, you know, financially, of course, but also really just taking care of them. Wellness, too.

Paige Nolan:06:56

Were they healthy? Were they. Was that modeled in the home?

JoAnne Lord:06:59

Yes. So mom and dad were healthy. They, you know, always tried to work out. They played a little bit of tennis, walked a lot. My dad, more so than my mom, was more active. He liked to walk. But they tried all of, you know, the 70s and 80s exercise workouts when we were growing up.

Paige Nolan:07:14

I love it.

JoAnne Lord:07:15

So, Jane Fonda, did you have family?

Paige Nolan:07:17

Did you have Jane Fonda DVDs? Probably, yes. Maybe.

JoAnne Lord:07:21

Yes, maybe. Yeah. That wasn't really my mom or dad, but yes, I think when we were in high school, we had those around the house, but we belonged to the Court Club. And so it was, you know, we were. The kids were always kept very busy.

Paige Nolan:07:34

Yeah. What about fashion? What about creativity? Was that. Was there any art around your house or did you just take the fashion? Because I imagine I can envision you as a younger little girl, like being so into fashion. That's how I imagine it was for you.

JoAnne Lord:07:49

So I was always into fashion. And really it comes from my mom and my aunts. So even though my mom was a nurse, she always loved fashion. I call my mom. I say my mom was a professional shopper. And those that know my mom would 100% understand where I'm coming from. My mother loved to shop. She was a shopaholic. And she loved to travel and explore. So even though we grew up in this small town and they were both in the medical field, we always had family vacations where we traveled either to the Philippines or to Thailand to visit family. But at a young age, they exposed us to Europe. So when I was 13, that was the first time I went to Europe with my mom. Lived, ended up staying there for a month and went to school in Switzerland.

Paige Nolan:08:33

Okay.

JoAnne Lord:08:34

So she always. My parents always exposed us. They wanted us to learn about other cultures. They wanted us to just really be open minded and educated. So I think a lot of the fashion, you know, the style, the art really comes from my parents and all the travels.

Paige Nolan:08:49

And you're doing that again. You're recreating that with your girls. I feel like, you know, like really living that lifestyle of exposing them and honoring culture.

JoAnne Lord:08:59

We really try to, I mean, it's very important to both Jeff and I, number one, to make sure the girls know where they're from, their heritage, you know, on both sides. On both sides. Jeff's side of the family as well as my side. But as far as art, my parents love art. They love painting. They're both very creative. I remember my mom taking painting classes, my dad taking painting classes, and she used to have a small home studio in the garage.

Paige Nolan:09:25

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:09:25

And floral arrangements. I mean, there was a phase in the late 70s, 80s, I'm dating myself, where my mom, you know, was always creating these amazing floral arrangements with silk flowers and with fresh flowers. There was a point where it was all about those silk flower hair clips.

Paige Nolan:09:43

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:09:44

And so I think my mom was one of the first to have a glue gun. And she was glue gunning everything.

Paige Nolan:09:49

A glue gun was so exciting when you went to those people's houses. I don't remember that we had one because we were more like painting and crafting.

JoAnne Lord:09:58

Yes.

Paige Nolan:09:58

But I had a couple friends whose moms had glue guns. It was like, it's a whole thing.

JoAnne Lord:10:03

hey were incredible. You could make anything. I mean, you could really glue anything together. So they were both very creative. And, you know, today my dad is a music composer. He's actually published music in Thailand. So even though they were in the medical field, they always had a very creative side.

Paige Nolan:10:22

Did they want you to pursue medicine? Was that like an expectation that you would be a professional? Like that.

JoAnne Lord:10:29

So definitely an expectation that we would be a professional medical school? I think by the time I Was in middle school, high school, they knew. I mean, I remember hearing them talk about definitely 100%, not for me, but I do remember, you know, when I was younger, hearing them talk about going to med school, I like to say it skipped a generation because my brother, my sister, myself, none of us went to med school. But Mali, that's what Mali wants to do. She wants to go to med school.

Paige Nolan:10:56

That's so cool. I do find my friends who practice medicine. Oftentimes there are parents or grandparents. Not all the time, but I do. I find that field particularly connected. Like, I have one of my best childhood friends that grew up going to the hospital with her mom, you know, and now she's a practicing doctor, too, so. Well, that's good. So did they encourage you to then find your own path when you went to college? And did you see fashion that young? Did you see it in undergrad?

JoAnne Lord:11:25

So I always saw fashion, and I always loved it. At 15 and a half, I got my first job, and that was working for the hottest retailer in the small town. They hired me as a stock person. So I was unpacking boxes, steaming clothing, hanging, you know, clothes up on hangers. My parents knew that I loved fashion. My mom, for sure knew, and she knew where that was coming from. And really what was important to my parents was that we picked something that we were really passionate about. So, you know, would they have loved us to go into the medical field? Probably, but they never really ended up pushing that way because they knew we weren't interested. But they did make sure that we had a great education, and they did make sure that we had the tools to, you know, find a great job, find that first job and really stick with something and. And do our best and be really good at it.

Paige Nolan:12:14

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:12:15

So.

Paige Nolan:12:15

And when you were in college, did you choose, like, a major that you knew that you were going to go into fashion business or something or.

JoAnne Lord 12:23So in college, there wasn't a fashion major. I went to the University of Washington.

Paige Nolan:12:27

Okay.

JoAnne Lord:12:28

And so I ended up getting a double major in communications and sociology.

Paige Nolan:12:32

Oh, yeah. So I always see that in you.

JoAnne Lord:12:35

Yeah, I always loved the action. So communications was broadcast journalism. So for a point there, I. I always loved fashion, but I thought, I don't know if I can really pursue a lucrative, serious career in fashion. I really didn't know how to do it at the time, so I thought broadcast journalism. That sounds exciting. I love being in front of the camera. I love putting myself out there. So I did that. I did internships while I was in College after college. But really my break into fashion happened when I was in San Francisco. I was doing an internship at KGO TV for the summer, broadcast journalism. But I was also working at Nordstrom for the summer. And that was a big store in San Francisco. I met an amazing woman there that was a sales rep for a jewelry line. And we just started talking. We stayed connected, and years later, she ended up hiring me. And so that was my first job, first fashion job, aside from working retail out of college.

Paige Nolan:13:33

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:13:33

And from that position, I kept meeting the right people. It was. That was the first stepping stone. We went to a trade show in Las Vegas, the Magic trade show, which 25 years later, I was just at that trade show with Mali and Lili. Last February. Last month. Yes.

Paige Nolan:13:51

That's very cool. Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:13:53

So from that first job, I then met the founder of my second job while we were flying back from Las Vegas. The timing was incredible. It was really great. And so, you know, and that job probably happened about a year and a half later, but we kept in touch. I was living in San Francisco. It was an amazing startup company. He was a Harvard MBA grad. He wanted somebody with, like, a fashion sense and someone outgoing that could sell the product. So I went to that company, that was Blue Marlin. And then after Blue Marlin, I said, you know, I really need to get into the corporate world. So after Blue Marlin, I took the leap. And that's when I went to go work at bebe, which was based in San Francisco.

Paige Nolan:14:31

And you were there for. For years, right?

JoAnne Lord:14:32

I was there for years. I actually worked for B three times throughout my corporate career.

Paige Nolan:14:39

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:14:39

Yeah.

Paige Nolan:14:39

What do you attribute navigating that corporate world? Is it finding mentors? Is it just getting lucky with the right boss? Is it advocating for yourself?

JoAnne Lord:14:48

I think it's a combination of all of the above.

Paige Nolan:14:51

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:14:51

So definitely, you know, finding mentors, finding people that believe in you, people that you really connect with, people that can train you, that teach you. I was very, very fortunate that my first boss, if you will, my first boss, Kathy Lee at bb, was an incredible, incredible woman. She really taught me everything. And then her boss, you know, who. Two above B, the vice president of merchandising at the time. His name's Greg Scott, and he is still one of my dearest friends. They're both very good friends. I see Greg more because I've worked for Greg four times throughout my corporate career at four different companies.

Paige Nolan:15:31

Did you follow Greg, like, he would recruit you when he.

JoAnne Lord:15:35

Yeah, I got really, really lucky. And I'm so super grateful for that relationship and that experience because he would recruit me. There were a couple of times that I didn't work for him when I was in Philadelphia and I was a buyer at Urban Outfitters. And then another time here in Los Angeles when I went and worked for the Marciano brothers at Guess, and then another time when I was at Kohl's. But all the other times I reported to Greg, he was my CEO and really taught me a lot about the business, but also about how to navigate and communicate with people. He was an amazing communicator and his energy was infectious.

Paige Nolan:16:13

Incredible. It's such a huge part of it is just the energy that the leader creates on the team.

JoAnne Lord:16:20

It really, really is. We still to this day call him our fearless leader because he just puts himself out there and knows how to assemble incredible teams of talent. So I was very, very fortunate. And he's still in the industry, so he just took on a role. He's the CEO at Express and Bonobos. So he's still out there doing his thing.

Paige Nolan:16:41

Yeah. And I bet it's changed so much.

JoAnne Lord:16:44

Talk about so much.

Paige Nolan:16:46

Do you feel like you have learned as much from the bad bosses or the teams that fell apart or the shifts where you chose to leave because it wasn't the right fit?

JoAnne Lord:16:55

I definitely have 100%. I have learned from the ones that were not such great leaders as well as the ones that have been amazing leaders and the ones that were not the best leaders. I think that a lot of it was communication style. So I think the reason why they weren't great leaders is I think the communication style, maybe the respect for those that are under them part of the team instead of really empowering your team and teaching them and guiding them and leading them. Those that weren't the best leaders weren't able to do that weren't able to teach and train and delegate. So I did. I've, you know, I look at all of my 20 plus years of experience in the corporate world and I have learned a lot from positives and negatives, you know, that, that have helped me for sure.

Paige Nolan:17:42

When I speak with people about whether it's small business or sometimes I'll have clients who are in bigger organizations and we'll talk about how they're leading their teams. It's always about communication. It's always about like repairing a moment or like I'll do a coaching call, preparing the person to go have the developmental conversation with a direct report, you know, how can that person get better? So basically I'm coaching the client to have a coaching call with somebody else. But I, I find that so true. And it's so difficult because it's hard to, to have the courage and to slow down the pace of the workday, to go back and say, you know, when we had that con and you said it this way, this is what happened for me. You know, this is how I interpreted that. Because it's just moving so fast. And especially now, the pace of business is so fast that you think, gosh, if I go have that conversation, it's a waste of time or it won't go well or. But those are the kind of conversations that I find really build trust between colleagues. And it's hard to do that. It's true.

JoAnne Lord:18:46

And those are the times where I think everyone learns the most.

Paige Nolan:18:49

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:18:50

You know, I think the, the leader and the team, I think that's when you really do learn the most. But you're so right. In business, it happens so quickly. In the fashion industry, they're non stop meetings. I mean, the joke is, you know, every Monday we're in a meeting from the start of the day to the end of the day and there's just no time to talk to anybody, answer emails, you know, make a phone call. Doesn't exist. So I think the times where you really slow down and kind of reflect and ask the questions are the times where you really learn. But it's not easy when everybody's moving so fast or rushing to the next meeting.

Paige Nolan:19:21

Ye, for sure. So tell us about when the kids entered the scene. I know you married Jeff. I think y'all got married in your late 20s.

JoAnne Lord:19:28

We got married in our early 30s. Okay, early 30s, yes.

Paige Nolan:19:33

And you have two daughters.

JoAnne Lord:19:34

Yeah, we have two daughters. And we're about to celebrate our 20 year wedding anniversary, so in April. Thank you. Thank you. It just has gone by so fast. And then Mali and Lili are two daughters. Mali's 18 as senior and Lili is 13 in seventh grade right now.

Paige Nolan:19:49

So when, when you had children, you're still in the cor corporate world. You're at the height of your career.

JoAnne Lord:19:56

Yep.

Paige Nolan:19:57

When you had your girls, were you working for Greg at the time?

JoAnne Lord:20:00

Yes. So when we had Mali, I was a vice president of merchandising at BB here in Los Angeles and I took about three months off and then I went back to work full time and I loved it. You know, listen, I love being a mom, I love being a wife. I love, I really do love to do it all, but I really love my career and I really needed my career. It defined me. It really defined me. And it was a defining moment to have been able to kind of climb that corporate ladder and be a vice president of merchandising. I was over all of non apparel at the time, which was about $100 million business.

Paige Nolan:20:37

Wow.

JoAnne Lord:20:37

And so for the first couple of years, going back after I had Mali, it was great. I mean, Jeff and I, he had a corporate. He still does have a corporate career, but he was traveling a lot. I was traveling a lot. We were very fortunate that we had incredible, incredible help. Family would come when they could, but we had a full time nanny that was with us Monday through Friday.

Paige Nolan:20:59

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:20:59

And for the first couple of years, it was really perfect. The schedule was down. It worked out really well. It's ironic how this happened, but when we started, when Mali started preschool.

Paige Nolan:21:10

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:21:11

That is when I felt like I had a little bit of, like an identity crisis. I mean, do I want to continue having this full time, amazing corporate career, or did I feel like I needed to be more involved and kind of have more flexibility to be able to volunteer while she was in preschool? So looking back, that was definitely a big crossroads for me at that point was, you know, I saw a lot of the other moms, a lot of the other moms. And this is about the time you and I met. But a lot of other moms able to volunteer at preschool because a lot of them took time off or a lot of them, you know, just were not working.

Paige Nolan:21:49

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:21:50

And I was one of the few that had this corporate executive career and traveling. Yeah, traveling a lot.

Paige Nolan:21:59

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:22:00

So that's where I had to kind of make the decision, what do I want to do? And it really was around that time when Mali was about 4 years old, that I decided that I needed something more flexible.

Paige Nolan:22:12

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:22:13

So.

Paige Nolan:22:14

And this was before Lili was Lili born, when Mali was five.

JoAnne Lord:22:17

Lili was born right before Mali turned five.

Paige Nolan:22:21

Okay, so you're making the decision before you've had baby number two.

JoAnne Lord:22:25

Exactly. So, you know, I stuck with it and I stayed with it, you know, until we had baby number two. But I tried to figure out ways of how do I get in there and volunteer. I really wanted to stay with a corporate career because, you know, it was an amazing career. I worked so hard. I loved it. I loved my team. But I also was so aware of other moms being able to volunteer and.

Paige Nolan:22:49

Be involved in class and just the flexibility. I mean, I think, like, the benefit is that you're getting this financial security and especially for someone like you who had your sights set on that industry and you had moved up the ladder. It must have felt very gratifying to get where you're getting. And so there's that piece of it and security in that. But the flexibility, once those kids have voices and lives and they're meeting friends and like, what moms?

JoAnne Lord:23:16

The play dates.

Paige Nolan:23:17

It's so much hard. Yeah. They're like, trying to navigate their careers. I'm like, it's so much harder as the kids get older because you miss these moments of like picking them up or as you know, because we both have teenagers in our home. It's really hard. I traveled so much more when my kids were younger than I am willing to travel now. Because you just don't want to miss the moments in the kitchen where it's like the random moment the teenager feels like speaking and you're like, wait, she wants to tell me everything right now. I'm.

JoAnne Lord:23:47

I'm here.

Paige Nolan:23:48

You can't miss it. It's true.

JoAnne Lord:23:50

It's so true. It was. It was easier when she, you know, when Mali was one to.

Paige Nolan:23:55

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:23:56

You know, before we started preschool. But I stuck with it, I stayed with it. And then it was really time to have our second child. And it was when I got pregnant with Lili that it was time to kind of figure out what I was going to do. Freelance, have more flexibility. It was really important to me to be able to have the play dates with the other moms.

Paige Nolan:24:13

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:24:14

Socializing is so important. I build your social butterfly.

Paige Nolan:24:18

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:24:18

Community. So important. And. And my mom raised us that way. You know, my mom had flexibility in her career and she was driving us to, you know, the play dates and dropping us off and all the school activities. And I really wanted to do that. After I had Lili, I went back. It was important to me. And I. I was at bb. I went to Kohl's after that. Then I went to New York and Company. And when I was at New York and Company, I was bicoastal. I was spending 10 nights a month living in New York. I had an apartment in New York, you know. But I also had a very young baby after Lili was born, because I realized when I did take that time off or when I had that freelance moment, you know, being a full time stay at home mom was not really my thing either.

Paige Nolan:25:03

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:25:04

And I realized I was a much better mom, a much more interesting person, a much more engaged wife and mom to both Mali and Lili at this time. When I had something outside of the house.

Paige Nolan:25:17

Yeah. I'm the Same way. I know, like, I go crazy if I don't have something else.

JoAnne Lord:25:24

Yes.

Paige Nolan:25:24

It just. And all the kids know it. It's like, go read a book, mom. Go to a conference. Go. Go do your webinar. Or go have lunch with a great friend and have a great conversation. Because if it's too much focus on them, I just lose my mind.

JoAnne Lord:25:41

I'm the same way.

Paige Nolan:25:42

It's good to know. Yeah. It's all you can do is know yourself. It sounds like you had to have those experiences right next to each other to really dig in. And then you got Manhattan. But then it was a lot. Yeah, I mean, I remember that it was a lot.

JoAnne Lord:25:57

It was. It really was. But so, yeah, you know, really having children, having a corporate career, I learned a lot about myself.

Paige Nolan:26:04

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:26:04

And I went back and forth too, but really, for about 20 plus years straight, I was in the corporate world.

Paige Nolan:26:10

And then. Tell me about the slowing down. And did the slowing down come from the health. Having breast cancer. Did it come. Did it come before that? Okay, so tell us about that moment and kind of what wake up call you got there.

JoAnne Lord:26:22

Yes. So when I was at New York and Company, I was vice president of merchandising for the non apparel division. And this is when I had, you know, 10 nights a month living in New York, had an apartment there. The BRCA genes runs in our family. Brca. I was considered high risk because my mother had had breast cancer several times. You know, we had regular doctor's appointments. We were monitoring, doing all the testing for preventative care. And I had an appointment, and it was in the morning, and I was flying to New York that afternoon. This was, I believe this was 2013. 2013, 2014. And Jeff took me to this appointment. They did a biopsy, and it came back cancerous. So we thought it was stage zero, but then it was stage one.

Paige Nolan:27:09

Okay.

JoAnne Lord:27:09

And because it runs in the family and there's a genetic factor right there, it was a very quick and serious treatment. So that moment right there changed my entire life. Career.

Paige Nolan:27:24

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:27:25

What I was doing, that was the defining moment that forced me to slow down, take time off from corporate worlds and really focus on what was in front of me, which was the breast cancer diagnosis.

Paige Nolan:27:40

Yeah. Was that a difficult thing just to slow down? Obviously having cancer is terrifying, but I mean, just from the perspective of living one pace and then having to live another pace, that happens in my world all the time, talking to people, and I find that people really have trouble with that.

JoAnne Lord:27:59

It was so difficult, Paige. It was the hardest time in my life. My life really did just kind of stop that afternoon. I was supposed to get on a plane that afternoon and it just stopped. So I, you know, had to deal with all the treatment. I had to just kind of stop in the middle of my corporate work and career and meetings in New York, you know. And I was also really scared because I had two young kids at home.

Paige Nolan:28:24

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:28:24

You know, two young kids, a husband that was very much into his career and growing in his career. And we were busy. Like, we had it down. We had. Everything was timed and perfect and great. But that moment made me slow down. It made our whole family really have to kind of rethink how our family was going to work and operate.

Paige Nolan:28:44

What did you lean on the most for support? Was that your girlfriend's a community. Did you have people who had gone through this before you? Maybe a friend who had experience or.

JoAnne Lord:28:56

All of the above? I have to say my mom and my aunts who have both who have got, who had gone through breast cancer. So I had that. Of course. My sister was a huge help. My husband was absolutely amazing. Jeff was incredible. You know, he was the one that called and scheduled the doctor's appointments. I mean, that is a full time job right there. I was so numb, I didn't know what to do. It, you know, and scheduling is very challenging. It's very difficult to schedule any appointment. Right. The callbacks. And I was, I was so numb, I didn't know what to do. My community of moms in Los Angeles were incredible. And this community really was my Bel Air preschool community of moms, where Mali and Lili went to preschool. These families are still some of the best family friends that we have today. And a group of several moms. But there were three in particular. We like to call our little group the Fab Four. They were there for me, like I told them. The diagnosis met up. It was, you know, friends, family. Friends and family.

Paige Nolan:30:03

Do you lean into your faith?

JoAnne Lord:30:05

Yes, and faith. Definitely faith. We were raised Catholic and the power of prayer. My mother was very, very Catholic and always instilled in us. Pray. Pray for. Pray and be thankful for the winds. Pray and be thankful. You know, when you're having a difficult time, go to church, which we're not so great at. But we pray all.

Paige Nolan:30:25

Neither are we.

JoAnne Lord:30:27

We're not.

Paige Nolan:30:28

We go in like prison.

JoAnne Lord:30:29

Easter. Yes, yes. But I do, I, I, I love prayer. And we have raised the girls to pray. I mean, we get on the plane and we're all doing the sign of the cross. On the plane.

Paige Nolan:30:40

Yeah, it's a touchstone. It's a touchstone for you. Do you feel like that time brought you closer to your mom?

JoAnne Lord:30:48

100%, definitely. And it was hard for my mom, though, too, I have to say. You know, she. It was genetic, and so she was positive, as you know, to have the BRCA and for you to have it.

Paige Nolan:31:00

Yes.

JoAnne Lord:31:01

Yeah, it was really hard for her. She felt guilty. She felt very guilty. And my sister also found out at the time that she also had the gene as well, so that was really hard. But my mom was really great. She flew down here, you know, we would go home. They were so great with the kids.

Paige Nolan:31:18

She got time with the girls.

JoAnne Lord:31:20

Yeah, had a lot of time with the girls. And I was really fortunate. Like, we had a lot of family help.

Paige Nolan:31:25

Yeah, a lot of family help. And during this time is that when you. Once you gain some strength and you have a plan so you're a little bit more confident in your own wellness, is that when you start imagining what could be possible for your own brand? Or did it come after that? Like, once you were really done with everything?

JoAnne Lord:31:43

It was still after that. It was after I went through treatment. I had to go through chemo. I had a, you know, surgery and chemo. So for about a good year, I was taking care of myself.

Paige Nolan:31:55

Okay.

JoAnne Lord:31:56

And I was taking care of the girls because I still had chemotherapy treatments. And so once I was ready, once I felt like I really was ready to go back to work, I needed it for myself. It was also going to be part of the healing process. I went back to bb, where I was, where I had been, I think, four times before. Three or four times before I went back there. And I was fortunate enough to secure a consulting role. So I was working three days a week. And this really was the full first time that I was very successful, having a freelance consulting role that was a semi permanent role that was very consistent. It was a weekly schedule, and I was there for almost a year.

Paige Nolan:32:38

Okay.

JoAnne Lord:32:39

And toward the end of that year, when the company decided that it was time they went out of business, he ended up going out of business. Right. They sold their brand name. So it was that time where I really had to think about all the relationships that I had and what I was going to do in Los Angeles. There's a lot of fashion in la, but for what I do, the corporate specialty, like these buying roles, VP of merchandising roles, there are not a lot. You know, there's a lot in New York, there's not a lot here. So I went, I reached out to all my contacts. I started again freelancing for an amazing handbag manufacturer. Okay, really incredible handbag manufacturer that I had been working with, that I was buying and developing product with when I was at Bibi, when I was at New York and Company. So I was really reaching out to all my contacts that I'd worked with on the manufacturing side and started working with this great handbag manufacturer. And while I was working with the handbag manufacturers, when I came up with the idea of this incredible partnership. And that's when I decided it was time to launch Mali + Lili.

Paige Nolan:33:44

Yeah, it's so much more organic than I realized. Like, it really came from you living through it and you being in that relationship with the handbag manufacturer. You know, it's. It wasn't like you were sitting around going, oh, I can't wait to start my own brand. Which is a distinction because.

JoAnne Lord:34:00

Right.

Paige Nolan:34:01

Knowing your personality, you can go and get it.

JoAnne Lord:34:02

Yes.

Paige Nolan:34:02

You know, so I didn't know if you had, like, thought of it or if it came to you. And I think sometimes it's a little bit of a hybrid for people where it's like, it's the meeting of, oh, this has crossed my mind. But then it's the perfect storm of all the people in the network. It really was the idea of meeting. And that's a big part of what happened for you. It sounds like it really was.

JoAnne Lord:34:22

I pitched this idea to my manufacturing partner and, you know, in the beginning, it was going to be like small bags and card cases and wallets and cute things like that.

Paige Nolan:34:32

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:34:33

And it just kind of grew and it was really organic Paige. I was really fortunate to be in the right place at the right time to have the concept, to have the idea, to have the manufacturer to know the business. Because when I was a vp, I was overseeing non apparel, which was handbag shoes, sunglasses, you know, intimates, you name it. Anything that's not a traditional piece of clothing fell under my category. So it really was great. We started sampling. We came up with a small line and we pitched it to Nordstrom.

Paige Nolan:35:06

And is this full time now? Like, are you or is it still flexible on your own time? Because now the girls are in elementary school.

JoAnne Lord:35:13

They're in elementary school. And this is now full time. So this is now full time. You know, I am now full time working for this manufacturer, but also pitching and coming up and designing this concept of Mali + Lili.

Paige Nolan:35:27

Yeah. So that's great to note because it was both. Ann, you had some Security from. I did the job at the same time as you're going out and pitching the idea. I really think people often ask me that, you know, do I do the big leap and really leave the thing? And, you know, like you, I was teaching at Bel Air Preschool where you and I met. And then I started doing the support groups for moms on the side. So it's interesting. I. I'm a big fan of that because I feel like it mitigates some of that extreme anxiety.

JoAnne Lord:35:57

I'm the same way. I think, you know, the full time gig was really what helped fund what was the passion project at the time. You know, it was what I ideally wanted to grow, but I needed this other, you know, full time job to help me get there. So it was, it was really great timing. And once Mali + Lili started taking off and once we were able to get into some amazing stores, it really kind of became all about Mali + Lili.

Paige Nolan:36:28

Yeah. Did you ever have moments of doubt with it? I felt like it was a. Yeah. Cause all the time, the outside it was a launch. I was like, oh, my gosh, Joe. Like one second I saw the idea of it and like the. And then all of a sudden it was like you were in Nordstrom and now you're.

JoAnne Lord:36:45

I have doubts. I have doubts. I have doubts every day, all the time. Oh, my gosh. Yes. Oh, my gosh.

Paige Nolan:36:52

What is the difference between because you have this corporate background and now it's a successful brand. Yeah. But what. Tell us about the doubts and the difference in those two experiences.

JoAnne Lord:37:02

It's very different. I mean, you know, we are still a tiny baby company. We're a baby company. We're. We're in about 500 stores internationally, but we're still a baby, baby company compared to the corporate businesses that I was running and managing. $100 million business, you know, we're not anywhere near there.

Paige Nolan:37:19

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:37:20

But we're in some of the best stores in the country and internationally. You know, anthropology, Nordstrom, FabFitFun, Stitch Fix, and we, you know, direct to consumer and amazing websites. All of these great places. Oprah's favorite things. All these great things. But we are really, we are a small company and we run very nimble. We have to run very, very nimble. And when you're in a big corporate company, you have a beautiful travel budget. You have, you know, great travel budget. You're traveling internationally, you're traveling to New York, staying at nice hotels, like all of these incredible things. You know, being a small startup, we have to be Very nimble. We don't spend like that. We don't have those types of budgets. So, you know, there was a lot that I, I missed out of that. A great salary and bonuses and benefits. Yeah, all of those things. But where I am today, I love it. I have the flexibility.

Paige Nolan:38:19

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:38:19

I have the creativity. I am still in the fashion industry. I am making a mark. You know, I'm growing a brand named after my two daughters that is available internationally. So it is, it's a little bit of a trade off. I mean, you really. It's. It's different. The corporate world to having a startup is very different.

Paige Nolan:38:40

Yeah. Is that the risk? You know, is it just so much closer to home? It's like there's no, there's no security of this big corporation, even though that's not really secure. But it feels to me like when it's your own thing, you actually could see it potentially totally failing. Whereas when it's a corporation that's been around, it's like, okay, this thing isn't going anywhere. Is that the main.

JoAnne Lord:39:02

Yeah, that, that is definitely the main difference for me. You know, when I, I mean, and listen, large companies go out of business all the time.

Paige Nolan:39:10

For sure.

JoAnne Lord:39:10

So many, for sure. So many retailers close their doors since the pandemic. You know, it's a very different time in retail today than it was when I was working full time and even pre pandemic five years ago. But, you know, there was just much more stability being in a corporate. It felt much more stable, you know, stable schedule, teams, like reliable, reliable. I did it for 20 plus years.

Paige Nolan:39:36

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:39:36

So, you know, doing your own thing, you, I mean, listen, we were fiscally responsible, but doing your own thing. You look at every dollar spent on your airfare to New York or the hotel you're staying in or that dinner that we're having. It's very different. So.

Paige Nolan:39:52

And I would imagine finding people hiring and firing and, you know, finding your team.

JoAnne Lord:39:57

Yes, very, very different. But what I love about what I do now is, listen, I can work from home.

Paige Nolan:40:03

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:40:03

I can go downtown to the warehouse, to our office. Three days a week, five days a week, one day a week. It really depends on the meetings and the team meetings that I have.

Paige Nolan:40:14

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:40:15

So the flexibility is great.

Paige Nolan:40:17

Did you have clear goals like you wanted to be in certain stores, or were you much more open about it? Like, okay, we'll see where this goes. Or was it very targeted, like, I will get to the top of this. I will be the best of the best of this. How did you approach it?

JoAnne Lord:40:33

It was very targeted. Very targeted. So when we developed the first Mali + Lili line, my goal was, we need to get it into Nordstrom.

Paige Nolan:40:42

Okay.

JoAnne Lord:40:43

And that's huge. I mean, you know, I tell my friends, I tell my daughters, I tell my husband, I tell the team that we were really fortunate that our first account was Nordstrom. Like, that just doesn't really happen, but because it happened to us, I think we kind of take it for granted, you know, and seven years later, we're still at Nordstrom, and they're. They've been an amazing partner. So that was a huge accomplishment. And I think the fact that we were able to get into Nordstrom, you know, that first delivery in October 2017, really helped position the brand and really helped us grow significantly. Because being at Nordstrom, other retailers see you being at Nordstrom, there's so much press that goes along with that.

Paige Nolan:41:24

It legitimizes your brand. Yeah, it.

JoAnne Lord 41:26It really, really does. It does. It validates who you are. Yeah, it validates that, you know, oh, this brand is good enough to be a Nordstrom. And, you know, fashion editors would see our bags on the Nordstrom website, and we would get so much organic free press in the best magazines and, you know, social media. Once you start posting all of that, it's. It was. Nordstrom was really an amazing account for us to get into, and that really helped us grow Mali + Lili.

Paige Nolan:41:57

Yeah. What do you do with that feeling, that responsibility feeling when you have your own business? Especially knowing that you needed to slow down for your own wellness and honoring your wellness like you do. And, you know, I. I saw you change your life, you know, so it's like you. You have flexibility. Your whole entire life is your family. Even though we're talking about business, like, you're. You're such a family person. So what would. How do you handle that? Like, up at midnight, thinking about your business and your brand and all the things you have to do with this more grounded and mature and holistic approach to your life. Like, those two live side by side. How do you handle the tension of those two, and how does the wellness win out? Because I know you do a great job of balancing it, and I know how healthy you are.

JoAnne Lord:42:47

Thank you. Scheduling. It is a lot of scheduling. It is a lot of notes. I will wake up at three in the morning, I will have an idea. I will think about something that didn't get done, and I will put it in my notes. I mean, I live by this phone, the notes constantly. Like, I have so Many notes going. It is for me, it's about scheduling, it's about planning. And I am such a planner too. So I'm constantly planning for the business. I'm constantly planning for my social life, for my family's life, school, everything. So it is really, you know, it's time management. It's having, I think, really strong time management skills, which I will say I learned in the corporate world. That I learned in the corporate world.

Paige Nolan:43:28

Yeah, yeah. It's such a sign of our times too. Like sometimes I think in our culture we want to throw the baby out with the bathwater and make every change, everything, and throw out all the institutions and the systems. And that's not a bad idea. Everything needs to be revamped. But just that example that you gave, that actually what you learned from the corporate world, what you learned from these kind of more old school institutions is exactly what keeps you nimble. It's exactly what's keeping you innovative and creative. And I think it has to be both. And you know, it has to be that we take what we learn from kind of the older way of doing things to push us into this new future that I hope can be healthier for everybody and not, not as much burnout.

JoAnne Lord:44:12

Yeah. Yes. And I think because I came from that corporate world and I wanted the flexibility and I wanted these things that I wasn't able to have in the corporate world, I am really making sure that I take advantage of it now. I balance the time, I get the work done, I try to get the work done, you know, literally during the day work, business hours. But I have the flexibility. I can be up late. I get up at 5 in the morning and I'm sending emails to the East Coast. I get up at 5 in the morning and I'm thinking about everything we need to do for the week. So it is nice to be able to have flexibility, but it is structure within that flexibility. It's the structure. It is time management. It's a lot of notes. It's my to do list. It's my calendar. I couldn't live without my calendar. And that was all learned in the corporate world. That was all learned in the corporate world. And you know, listen, I have friends that have started small businesses that never really worked in the corporate world. And I know that that piece is much harder to kind of manage.

Paige Nolan:45:15

Yeah. Do you have any regrets about your career path or anything you would do differently now that you're kind of on this side of really feeling fully like you are expressing yourself and you have the Good balance. And you're proud of what you've built. Would you have done it any differently?

JoAnne Lord:45:34

You know, I'm super grateful for where I am, but I have to say, now that my kids are older.

Paige Nolan:45:40

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:45:41

Because I've been, you know, I've had the business for seven years now. We're growing. I have to say, though, I'm so proud of it. I love having Mali + Lili. We're gonna keep growing. You know, there's new avenues and new ways of doing business. But there is a part of me that has come full circle where I start to miss the corporate world. Now that my kid. Yeah. Now that my kids are older, now that Mali's leaving for college, there really is, there's a part of me that's like, you know, I see some of my colleagues and where they are today, and I'm like, maybe I would have been a CEO by now, you know, maybe, you know, or, you know, really kind of continue to climb that ladder. So. Yeah.

Paige Nolan:46:24

Would you go back? Has it crossed your mind to go back?

JoAnne Lord:46:27

You know, I think about it, I do think about it.

Paige Nolan:46:29

I thought about it way.

JoAnne Lord:46:31

Yeah, I'm very open minded. I mean, I think in an ideal world, I would continue to grow. Mali + Lili, you know, for sure keep that, but maybe consult, you know, maybe also have a little bit of space in the corporate world as well.

Paige Nolan:46:47

Yeah. You know, how do you think it's changed, especially fashion industry? Like, what's the biggest? And you know, you're talking to someone who does not know the fashion industry as you know. Yes, but I feel like it's, it's one of those industries that's really, really different. So when you think about returning back to it, what is one of those, the differences that stands out to you?

JoAnne Lord:47:08

So it's really interesting because I think that since the pandemic five years ago, the fashion industry has been so completely different. 100%. Yeah, different. The fact that buyers were able to work from home for really the last five years, we never would have that opportunity. I mean, I would stress out about walking in, you know, five minutes late into the office as a buyer, as an executive. And you know, the last five years, a lot of companies, and still now a lot of companies are still have a hybrid schedule where the buyers are able to be remote. So that is the biggest difference.

Paige Nolan:47:43

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:47:44

But what I'm seeing today is I'm seeing a lot of those companies this year now are having the buyers and everyone report back into the office. So that would have been the Biggest difference in the last five years is the flexibility that I really wanted at the time that I didn't have. So I would always joke and say, oh my gosh, no, my, my team, the younger team that kind of fell into this, they were still working in the corporate world. It was post pandemic or during the pandemic. I say they had the best of it because they were able, during the pandemic to have these amazing corporate jobs. Right. Full benefits, salary, all of that. But they were able to work from home. And that was so amazing because that would have never existed pre pandemic ever.

Paige Nolan:48:30

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:48:31

You know, so that would have been the biggest difference.

Paige Nolan:48:34

Yes. I love that. I also just think as your kids get older and even for somebody who doesn't have kids, as, as our human development, you know, we go through the stages. So as we get older, what's resonating with me about your story is that you can change, you can go back. It's like different seasons and sometimes I forget to think like that. Sometimes I'm like, oh, I'm going to do this. And it's going to be, even though I'm helping people to be open minded in my own life, I can get kind of like step by step by step and if I make this decision and I regret it, I can't go back. Or what if I do this? Or, you know, it's just an. I just took a part time job facilitating groups this year. I've been doing it for over a year now. But at first when I had that opportunity come across my desk, I was like, well, what if I'm, you know, responsible for going to facilitate a group? It's all local right now, it's all in Los Angeles. And I have another opportunity, you know, because I, I haven't been beholden to reporting to someone in years. I mean, like since I was a preschool teacher. But now to your point about structure, I love it because it gives me this structure and it's, I go and facilitate the group, but I'm not in charge of booking the venue and I'm not in charge of xeroxing, you know, copying the worksheets, you know, and it's this beautiful group of women who I've come to love. So it's been fantastic. But it was initially like, I don't know if I can commit to that because it's going to clip my wings. And then really it's actually made me feel even more liberated to do my own thing because it gives me a base.

JoAnne Lord:50:08

I love that I, I feel those opportunities give you a base and they also put you out there with other people. Yeah, I think that is a piece of what I miss. Not being in the corporate world, you have, you're with big teams, you're with people that you continue to learn from, you know, so when you go to these seminars or when you go and do these different groups, you're learning from all the people there, you know, so that's a part that I miss.

Paige Nolan:50:35

Yes.

JoAnne Lord:50:35

Having a small team, having a small company, being a startup, that's the piece that I miss, is I have to make sure that I position myself with the right people with, with like minded people or business people that I can continue to learn from.

Paige Nolan:50:51

Yes. We had this great conversation in one of those groups that I mentioned because I'm working with a lot of entrepreneurial type women and they were talking about the work that you have to do to get the work. And so when you're a small business, it's like so much work to get in front of the right people, you know, when you don't have the backing of that big, you know, brand recognition or the big company. And that is what comes to mind when you just shared that about your life. It's like all this work and knowing who to talk to and how to reach out and just to get to the place where you can get the big contract, the next big contract.

JoAnne Lord:51:29

Yes, it's a lot of work. It's a lot of behind the scenes. It's a constant hustle. That's what I say. It's a constant hustle. I love it. There's never a dull moment, that's for sure. And it comes in waves. Sometimes it's so incredibly busy, and other times I'm like, oh, I can go to Hot 8 Yoga right now. Which I love, because that's the wellness piece that I really yearn for. And that's the balance that I really want, is to take care of myself physically, emotionally, socially too.

Paige Nolan:52:00

Yes. Yes.

JoAnne Lord:52:01

Yeah.

Paige Nolan:52:01

So what is inspiring you these days? How do you. Well, two questions. How do you stay inspired for Mali + Lili? Like, do you have protected time where you're just on a walk or seeing a movie or going to lunch with friends and seeing what people are wearing? So I want to know where inspiration comes from and I also want to know what you're inspired to on the inside of you just in life right now. Like what, what's, what are you looking forward to? What are you enthusiastic about at this particular moment in your life?

JoAnne Lord:52:28

Well, for Mali + Lili for the business, what I love is all of our bags now are crafted in recycled vegan leather. So when we first started the business, they were in vegan leather, but they were not recycled. So we're constantly researching and talking to factories and sourcing new materials that are better for the environment. So now that we're at 100, recycled vegan leather, which means our handbags, the materials, no animal products. And each of the bags, the recycled vegan leather, is made from recycled water bottles. So what excites me. Yeah, so that's something that is fairly new. And I think we got to 100%, you know, two years ago. And what's really, really great is, you know, what keeps me motivated is researching new ways to develop product that is current. It's current. It serves a purpose. The purpose is, you know, all of our bags were designed so busy women could get through their day multitasking. You know, you look chic and fashionable, but the bags are functional.

Paige Nolan:53:31

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:53:32

So now what's exciting is they're. They're sustainable. They're crafted in recycled vegan leather. So we're constantly looking at new ways that we can do better for the environment and new ways that we can learn and teach and create a better product.

Paige Nolan:53:48

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:53:48

So that's what keeps me motivated, for sure. And inspiration. Inspiration is everything. Every day, it's shopping, it's new, it's vintage. It's, you know, European runways. It is looking at what's currently working in our stores right now that we're selling to, you know, and. And also staying motivated is really getting into more amazing stores, more amazing accounts. So we have.

Paige Nolan:54:18

You've got your targets. Yeah, we have our targets.

JoAnne Lord:54:20

Yes, we do.

Paige Nolan:54:21

Love it. So I want to end on this question about loving fashion and also working in fashion. Do you feel that working in the business and always being. Being, as you say, hustling, you know, and kind of ideating about the business, does that impact your love for the business? And I'm just gonna put this side note. I ask that because a lot of people ask me that, you know, if I'm making my passion and my interest, my business, how does it change how I interact with my passion? And do you feel like dilutes it, you know, or that you resent it or you get burnt out on it?

JoAnne Lord:54:57

Well, we definitely get burnt out on it. What I do is my passion.

Paige Nolan:55:00

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:55:01

But there are a lot of very unglamorous parts of it. Right. So there are a lot of things that I have to do that are not so fun that are not so glamorous, even though it's fashion. But overall, there are so many amazing things that I get to do. Meet new people, open new accounts, travel, get inspired, talk to buyers that I. It is my passion and I still really wholeheartedly love it.

Paige Nolan:55:27

Yeah.

JoAnne Lord:55:27

Yeah.

Paige Nolan:55:28

That's what I tell people too. Because in my world, I like to ask that question, what would you be doing anyway even if you weren't paid for it?

JoAnne Lord:55:36

Yes.

Paige Nolan:55:37

And to me, like, in my world, as you know, I love reading and I love talking to people and meeting people and helping people and teaching and guiding. I mean, it's all stuff that I would do anyway. So I don't. I haven't found that pursuing that professionally has diluted or, you know, depleted any of my energy for doing that personally. It's just a matter of self care, you know, and. And taking your hot yoga a class.

JoAnne Lord:56:05

Yes. You know, for me, they. Well said. Yes. I mean, there are some days that I love what I do. It's perfect. There are other days where sure we get stressed, we get frustrated, but overall, in general, I'm so grateful that I get to do what I love.

Paige Nolan:56:21

Something that stands out to me about Joanne's journey is how she's valued the relationships in her life. Her parents and siblings, the people she's met through her work, her friends who supported her through health challenges, the Fab four, and other moms who have surrounded her and helped her to raise her kids. And how in touch she is with the women who buy her products and the people along the way who have championed her brand to build this life she loves. Joanne says she kept meeting the right people and I guess one could say she's been at the right place at the right time, but I don't think we get into these lives that are aligned with our values by chance. It's not a passive thing to love your life. It's a full engagement with intention. Stick to itness. Lifelong learning, refining skills, reflecting, slowing down, asking better questions, and doing your best at any given moment, doing your very best. Joanne is fully engaged. She doesn't miss an opportunity. She takes what she needs from experience and pursues new experience. She's open minded and takes action to move her life forward. She's taken that drive that was fueled by her father's message. You can't depend on anyone else but yourself to take care of you. And she's applied it to a commitment to stay connected to who and what she loves. We can't depend on other people to connect us to what we love. We must seek connection and we must do what it takes to nurture the relationships that support us. Thank you for sharing your journey with us, Jo. I could say you do it all, but you don't do it all. Even better, you do what you love. It's not always easy or obvious, it's challenging and there's self doubt and stress along the way. But I'm inspired by how you plan, how you embrace structure with inflexibility, how you set your target and work hard to get there, and you enjoy every step of the way with the people surrounding you. I know how grateful you are for your life and I'm so grateful for how you're willing to share it with us. Okay y'all, that's it for now. I will meet you here again soon. Thanks to each of you for being here and for listening. I'm so grateful we get to share life in this way. As always, full show notes are available@paigenolan.com podcast. There you will find a full summary of the episode, timestamps and key takeaways, and any resources mentioned in our conversation. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love if you would leave me a rating and a review. You can do that by visiting Paigenoland.com love your reviews, really do help people to discover the show. And if you know someone specifically who would enjoy this episode, I'm so grateful to have you all share. I'll meet you there with your friends. Lastly, if you have any questions or comments, or if you would like to share any feedback with me, please email to meetme thereagenolan.com I would love to hear from you. Thank you to the team that makes this show possible. Podcast production and Marketing by North Node Podcast Network Music by Boyd McDonnell Cover photography by Innis Casey okay y'all, that's it for now. I'll meet you there again soon.