S2E3: Rabbi Steve Leder: Journeying through Grief and Growth to Gratitude and Impact

Paige Nolan 00:00:00:

North Node.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:00:02:

I did work hard at becoming a good writer. I.

Paige Nolan 00:00:05:

Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:00:06:

Part of the craft. And at the hybridization of the craft by becoming a really good speaker.

Paige Nolan 00:00:12:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:00:13:

And let me tell you, I taught homiletics for 13 years at the seminary. Homiletics is just a fancy word for writing sermons, wedding addresses and eulogies.

Paige Nolan 00:00:21:

Okay.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:00:22:

One of the most difficult things for me to improve in those students because they were all excellent students coming from excellent colleges and universities, but they only knew how to write to be read.

Paige Nolan 00:00:34:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:00:34:

They didn't know how to write to be heard. It's a completely different vernacular.

Paige Nolan 00:00:40:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:00:41:

Different language.

Paige Nolan 00:00:42:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:00:43:

I was always good at writing to be heard. I don't know why, but that was my genre.

Paige Nolan 00:00:56:

Hi, I'm Paige Nolan. Welcome to I'll Meet yout There. A place where heart centered conversations are everything. Living what matters is the truest thing, and sharing the journey is the best. Hi, everyone, and welcome back. Today my guest is Rabbi Steve Leiter, one of the most well known and influential rabbis in America. He has served as a rabbi of Wilshire Boulevard Temple here in Los Angeles for 40 years. He's now semi retired and I wanted to bring him on the podcast because he's wise and warm and he knows a few things about living what matters. I came to know Rabbi Leader's work through his heartfelt and insightful writing. He's published five books. My favorite of his books is entitled the Beauty of what Remains, which was published in January of 2021. And then a year later, he published another great book entitled for you When I am gone, 12 essential questions to Tell a Life Story. Rabbi Leader has become a leading voice in the grief space. You'll see him pop up on the television all the time as an expert. And this is because he's devoted his life to helping people survive and fully live through the most difficult and vulnerable times in their lives. So I met Steve a few months ago at a Grief Book Fair event here in la. He and my friend Barry Liner Grant, who's also been a guest on the podcast episode six from season one, they were on a panel together about parent loss. And I so enjoyed listening to Steve that I had the idea it would be fun to get more time with him one day. And then when I left the book event later that afternoon, I had the good fortune of standing at the valet stand with Steve and we started talking and I was telling him about how I was stressed because my daughters were in the middle of college applications and I found the whole process super intense. And he offered words of encouragement and a light hearted pep talk about the upside of having kids leave for college and it helped me gain a little bit more perspective that day. We laugh together. It's a very LA moment to have a laugh or connect with someone at the valet stand. But the interaction stuck with me and so I reached out to book more time with Steve on the podcast and it turns out he was happy to come on and meet us here. This episode begins with Steve referencing his childhood home and I want to give you just a bit of context so you can pick up where we are in the conversation right away. Steve grew up in St. Louis Park, Minnesota. It's a suburb of Minneapolis and his parents were married when they were 17 and 18 years old. They had five children before they were 30. Steve is number four of those kids. He grew up in a three bedroom, one bathroom home with a lot of rules, a lot of consequences, and what he describes as a stressful and crowded house. Steve's father owned a junkyard with his brother. They didn't get along and it was expected that Steve would one day run that business. But Steve had other plans and you'll hear him talk about his early experiences that led him to the synagogue and why he fell in love with the synagogue and what his dad thought about that choice. We talk about Steve's life as a rabbi and what he's learned from the people in his office as they've confided in him from what he calls the couch of tears. We also talk about what he's learned about loss through his own experiences like his father's death and how we can all re emerge to a more meaningful life as we get through hardship and pain. Steve knows how to show up for people and embrace living even in the face of sorrow. This conversation is full of his words of wisdom, words that can help us to show up too. Enjoy this conversation with Rabbi Steve Leader. Well, I'd love to start with the the calling. You know, I know your work really well. I've listened to you over the years. I love your writing. So I know that this was a calling to be a rabbi. I think that many of my listeners will want to hear that. And just personally, Steve, you should know that I love hearing about people's childhoods. I know your father played a big role. So take us back to the early days, the synagogue, where was it planted? How did you know that this was such a calling in such a major way?

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:05:04:

So let's go back. Ready? All right. So I grew up in this house and because My parents were overwhelmed and I was pretty really on my own. So all five of us, like, if we wanted to do something. You want to play hockey? Fine. Walk to the rink.

Paige Nolan 00:05:16:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:05:17:

You want to play baseball? Ride your bike to the practice. Okay. My mom never drove us to school or whatever. Like, she was just overwhelmed. And my dad was at work all the time, for I saw my dad. Most of my childhood time spent with my dad was if I went to work with him. Yeah, I went every Saturday from the time I was 6 or 7. I worked at the junkyard and we all did. So there wasn't a lot of encouragement to engage in anything. But there wasn't any resistance either. As long as we could handle it ourselves. Take the bus.

Paige Nolan 00:05:55:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:05:57:

Now, on top of that was a very blue collar perspective on work. And I don't mean work ethic. I have a very, very robust work ethic. Yeah, but you want to be an actor? Forget it. You want to be a musician? You're out of your mind. You want to be a writer? You want a what? You want to be a writer? Absolutely not. My father's talk with me my junior year of college went like this. You know, Steve, you're going to graduate next year, and I think there are a couple of things you should consider. I said, wow, Dad's talking to me about school now. I saw my parents twice at my university, once when they dropped me off and at graduation, he said, I think you should go to law school and take over Leader Brothers or you should not go to law school and take over Leader Brothers. Those were my choices.

Paige Nolan 00:06:52:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:06:53:

Now, there was one, for whatever reason, notable exception, the synagogue. They were proud of my involvement. They would drive us there.

Paige Nolan 00:07:05:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:07:06:

And I had some parental support for that. And it was valued in our home. Books and synagogue were valuable.

Paige Nolan 00:07:17:

Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:07:18:

In the leader cosmos. Okay. And that, therefore, was the place where I was able to be around. I mean, the rabbi seems so learned to me. And they wore suits and ties. And I thought myself, there wasn't a dad on our block who wore a suit and tie to work. And I thought to myself, if I could ever have a job where I wore a suit and tie, I would be the luckiest person in the world. Now, I hate it, of course, but it was aspirational. And I grew up in a suburb without a lot of that. Most kids I grew up with are still there. They're not aspirational. In fact, there's this kind of Lutheran, Norwegian or Scandinavian Lutheran ethos there of mediocrity. Is the Goal.

Paige Nolan 00:08:06:

Because.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:08:07:

Because the tall flower is going to get clipped.

Paige Nolan 00:08:09:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:08:10:

You better not get too big for your britches, you know, keep your head down and work at the junkyard. And. And I always, for whatever reason, was ambitious and. And I always ran toward people in trouble, which we can talk about later. But.

Paige Nolan 00:08:25:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:08:26:

So the synagogue. I was also like, the most beautiful room.

Paige Nolan 00:08:32:

Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:08:33:

Ever in as a kid. They didn't take us to the museum, that we didn't go to the theater, we didn't go to the symphony. So it was elevated.

Paige Nolan 00:08:42:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:08:42:

And the girls were there.

Paige Nolan 00:08:45:

Right.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:08:47:

I mean, that's. I. I met. You know, it was high school. I was, like, involved in my high school pretty heavily, but it was like that's where the girls were. And I went to summer camp, and summer camp was all about the girls, you know.

Paige Nolan 00:08:57:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:08:58:

And the rabbis who I so admired because I didn't have that in my life.

Paige Nolan 00:09:02:

Yeah. Did you like to read?

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:09:05:

I'm not a huge reader because I write and my wife's all over me about this. I do read, but only things directly related to my world of being a rabbi and all of that.

Paige Nolan 00:09:19:

Yeah. Because I just think of you as scholarly. Like, I think of you often when I talk to you. You're quoting or you're referencing. Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:09:26:

I've studied a lot, but to sit down and read a novel, that's like.

Paige Nolan 00:09:30:

So studying appealed to you from that young age and the joy.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:09:34:

And it's so interesting. My 9th grade drama and speech teacher changed my life.

Paige Nolan 00:09:39:

How so?

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:09:40:

She was the one.

Paige Nolan 00:09:42: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:09:43:

Her name is Sandy Marinson. I was 14. I thought she was quite old. Turns out she was 24.

Paige Nolan 00:09:50:

Oh, my goodness. That's funny.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:09:52:

And by the way, I just saw her two days ago. California.

Paige Nolan 00:09:57:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:09:57:

I've known her 50 years, but she was the one who saw something. And she would take me to the University of Minnesota library and check out plays and have me read them and then talk with me.

Paige Nolan 00:10:10:

I love that.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:10:12:

When my parents left us alone, my little. My three sisters went off to college. My brother and I. My parents. My dad was semi retired. He worked every other month because he hated his brother. So they worked, they traded off.

Paige Nolan 00:10:23:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:10:24:

And my parents would leave me and my little brother Greg for a month at a time.

Paige Nolan 00:10:29:

Wow.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:10:29:

On our own, like.

Paige Nolan 00:10:31:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:10:31:

Insane. Sandy would have us over to dinner. You know, she would keep an eye on us, things like that. So she changed my life and encouraged my aspirations.

Paige Nolan 00:10:42:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:10:42:

The other thing is, I loved being on the pulpit at my bar mitzvah.

Paige Nolan 00:10:49:

Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:10:49:

Frickin held court. I loved it. What we call Devar Torah. Like my little sermon on the part of the Torah, Bible, Hebrew Bible. I was reading. I kid you not. It was an anthology. I read everyone an anthology of my own poetry.

Paige Nolan 00:11:10:

That is amazing. I've never heard of that one.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:11:14:

I freaking loved it.

Paige Nolan 00:11:16:

Yeah. Destiny was calling.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:11:19:

And there was another moment too, which I have only lately. I'm in psychotherapy. I'm a big mental health advocate. I've had mental health struggles. Yeah, I'm happy to talk about. I recently told him about when I was 12 years old. I had to go to synagogue two times a week to prepare for my bar mitzvah. And my father, his mother hadn't died right around then, but not long before. And he was going to say the mourner's prayer a few times a week. He also had to pick me up and drive me home because it was closer to his. To the scrapyard than home. And on his way home, he would stop and there was always a service at 6 o'clock for people who needed to say the mourner's prayer for a loved one who had died within the past 11 months. That's the Jewish law.

Paige Nolan 00:12:05:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:12:06:

And they took turns leading this little service, mostly in English. There were maybe eight, nine, ten people there. And one day it was my dad's turn to lead. I was 12 years old. He took this little prayer book and he handed it to me and he said, you lead, you lead.

Paige Nolan 00:12:31:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:12:33:

I think that was a big part of what launched me in this. In this direction also. I went to a Jewish summer. I got arrested when I was 14 for shoplifting Bob Dylan albums from Target with my.

Paige Nolan 00:12:47:

Oh, good. I love that. It was Bob Dylan.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:12:49:

Oh, classy. Yeah.

Paige Nolan 00:12:50:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:12:51:

I was playing drums in a rock.

Paige Nolan 00:12:52:

And roll band and, you know, you needed an outlet. Yeah. I love that you were on the drums. That's probably like your self preservation.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:12:59:

It was great. And I was smoking weed every day.

Paige Nolan 00:13:01:

In junior high school. One bathroom, seven people. Yes. I was a little take the edge off.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:13:07:

I was on the wrong path. And so I get arrested. My parents are on vacation in Florida when that happens. My sister Marilyn has to get me out of the hooscaw. And then I have to call my parents who are on vacation and tell them I just got arrested and you have to come home because we have to meet with the detective. I was so freaked out. And another sort of minor point that becomes major is I remember when they drove us down to the police station in a police car. Which was sobering for 12. And the guy, the cops, taking the information, he says, you have any scars? I said, no. And he said, like, from a hockey puck or a knife fight? I thought, knife fight. This guy thinks like, yeah, I'm a punk. I'm not a punk. But I realized in that moment, if you act like a punk. Yeah, you're a punk.

Paige Nolan 00:14:00:

Yeah, that's your life.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:14:02:

So my parents wake up and realize they need to be parents.

Paige Nolan 00:14:06:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:14:07:

And they decide I need a change in my peer group. And they sent me to this Jewish summer camp in Oconomowoc, Wisconsin. Paige, from the moment I stepped off the bus, I was in love with all of it. All of it. All of it. There were all these kids there from Chicago. And when you grew up, where I grew up, going to Chicago was like going to Paris.

Paige Nolan 00:14:27:

Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:14:28:

So they were sophisticated, and the girls were so pretty. And, you know, it was the 70s, so they had flowers in their hairs and flow dresses on the Sabbath. And, you know, there was music. And the rabbis. There were these young rabbis who, many of whom became rabbis to avoid Vietnam. They were cool.

Paige Nolan 00:14:48:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:14:49:

And they liked the music I liked, and they played guitar and they wore earth shoes, and they were hippies. And I thought, this place. We slept in big army tents, like 12 kids in a tent. And we grew our own food in the garden, and it was all kibbutz kind of thing. And I was like, this is great.

Paige Nolan 00:15:05:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:15:06:

That was a big part of it. Then I went to Israel at 16. And by the way, it's one of only two times I ever saw my father cry. Was why?

Paige Nolan 00:15:16:

Why that time? Yeah. Tell us about that time.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:15:20:

Well, the first time was when I was 14. And they told the five of us. They sat us down and told us they were getting divorced.

Paige Nolan 00:15:26:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:15:26:

Which they ended up not doing because my sister Marilyn raised holy hell. Yeah. You know, my mother said, well, yeah, no, dad will get an apartment and I'll make a soup, and you kids will take it over there. And Marilyn, how about you get an apartment and we bring you a soup? Like she just unloaded.

Paige Nolan 00:15:44:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:15:45:

So they stayed together. They probably shouldn't have, but who knows? Anyway, that was the first time, the second time, and last time I ever saw my father cry was when he put me on the plane to Israel. And I think it's because I was living his dream. My father was born before the state of Israel.

Paige Nolan 00:16:06:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:16:07:

Didn't exist. He was born in 1933. Israel didn't come around till 1948.

Paige Nolan 00:16:11:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:16:13:

It was Special?

Paige Nolan 00:16:15:

Yes. Was he proud of you when you became a rabbi?

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:16:19:

When I told my dad, I said, I really think I want to go to rabbinical school. Why would you do that? You're going to have a thousand bosses. They're not going to appreciate you.

Paige Nolan 00:16:30:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:16:31:

That's the only kind of rabbi my father knew. He only knew the old Orthodox rabbi who showed up with a little herring spot on his tie.

Paige Nolan 00:16:38:

Y.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:16:38:

Asking for money.

Paige Nolan 00:16:40:

Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:16:41:

But. So I go. I do it anyway. My parents, when I came to Wilshire Boulevard Temple in Los Angeles, they had a condo in Palm Springs. They would drive in Saturday mornings if I was preaching and sit out there. And it didn't matter if there were 200 or 2,000 people out there. Paige. All I saw was a set of teeth.

Paige Nolan 00:17:10:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:17:12:

Behind my father's broad, broad smile.

Paige Nolan 00:17:16:

Oh, I love that.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:17:18:

And that, you know, he got there because. It's also partly because he could never have envisioned.

Paige Nolan 00:17:26:

Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:17:27:

Kind of rabbinate I constructed.

Paige Nolan 00:17:30:

Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:17:30:

The kind of congregation I helped to grow.

Paige Nolan 00:17:34:

So I think that's so much of parent, child relationship. You don't even have that big of an age difference because your parents were so young when they had you. But no, I was third. Oh. And you were the fourth. Right. But it's like you can't envision what your child is consciousness, because each generation was right.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:17:51:

We only know what we know.

Paige Nolan 00:17:52:

Yes. Yes. I'm really curious. When you got into the work at Wilshire Boulevard Temple, did you expect it to be as much about holding space for loss? You know, to me, your voice. You have become one of the voices in our collective consciousness in America, at least, you know, of really becoming a leader in loss and how to be compassionate in that experience. So did you know, though, as a rabbi that you would gain that kind of perspective?

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:18:23:

No, and I wasn't well prepared for it. The seminary is a disaster, by the way.

Paige Nolan 00:18:29:

Yeah. Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:18:30:

And it's. All of your professors are. People couldn't get jobs in the Congregational rabbinate because they're too socially awkward. So, yes, they know. They know nothing about running a big synagogue. So no is the answer. I was ill prepared, but I, as I said earlier, have always been a person who has run toward other people in trouble.

Paige Nolan 00:18:50:

Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:18:51:

My psychiatrist tells me that's because I wasn't rescued as a child. I wasn't whatever paid attention to whatever. Therefore, I see that in others and I want to help them. It's probably true, but who knows?

Paige Nolan 00:19:04:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:19:05:

So I did work hard at becoming a good writer. I.

Paige Nolan 00:19:09:

Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:19:10:

Part of the Craft and at the hybridization of the craft by becoming a really good speaker.

Paige Nolan 00:19:17:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:19:17:

And let me tell you, I taught homiletics for 13 years at the seminary. Homiletics is just a fancy word for writing sermons, wedding addresses and eulogies.

Paige Nolan 00:19:25:

Okay.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:19:27:

One of the most difficult things for me to improve in those students because they were all excellent students coming from excellent colleges and universities, but they only knew how to write to be read.

Paige Nolan 00:19:38:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:19:39:

They didn't know how to write to be heard. It's a completely different vernacular.

Paige Nolan 00:19:44:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:19:45:

Different language.

Paige Nolan 00:19:46:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:19:48:

I was always good at writing to be heard. I don't know why, but that was my genre.

Paige Nolan 00:19:55:

Yes. And do you. Do you feel like over the course of what you would call the couch of tears, is that where you were humbled and really earned the right to take a stand? On what? Because what I'm getting at is I do feel like you have a perspective about the universality of being human. What. What it means to be human. Do you learn that in your office? Yeah. That one to one, when someone comes and confides in you.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:20:22:

Yes. And I am a conduit through which ancient wisdom can flow to modern problems.

Paige Nolan 00:20:33:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:20:34:

There is no aspect of the human condition that the sages did not think through very deeply.

Paige Nolan 00:20:42:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:20:43:

And the human condition hasn't changed, Paige.

Paige Nolan 00:20:46:

That's right. Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:20:47:

We think we have modern problems. We don't have modern problems. You think we're the first people to live through a plague.

Paige Nolan 00:20:54:

Right.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:20:54:

Disease or a firestorm or mugging or violence or a dead child.

Paige Nolan 00:21:02:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:21:03:

2,000 years ago, 50% of children never saw their fifth birthday. They died.

Paige Nolan 00:21:10:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:21:11:

2,000 Years ago, you were a child till you were 12 or 13. Then you got married, you had your own family, and in your mid-30s, you were toothless and dead.

Paige Nolan 00:21:19:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:21:20:

If you were lucky. So the sages, they knew a lot about loss. They knew a lot about what it took to live with other people in a small community. And it's not that they knew more information than we know. You and I have more information than a king had 200 years ago.

Paige Nolan 00:21:40:

Right, Right.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:21:42:

We know more facts.

Paige Nolan 00:21:44:

Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:21:46:

But what they had that we don't have is they had time to think about what they knew.

Paige Nolan 00:21:50:

Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:21:51:

And they had time to search for the truths beneath the facts.

Paige Nolan 00:21:55:

Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:21:57:

And. And when people have a hard time reading the Bible and feeling it's legit in any way, say, oh, come on, that didn't happen.

Paige Nolan 00:22:07:

So.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:22:07:

You're right, it didn't. But that's not the point. It's Not a book of facts, it's a book of truths.

Paige Nolan 00:22:13:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:22:14:

Do you think the seas split? Hell, no. But is it true that in order to liberate yourself from slavery of any kind, you have to walk through a very frightening narrow place to get to the other side? That's true. Ask any addict. It's true. Did Noah get all those animals on a boat? Hell, no. That's not what this is about. Are the creatures on this planet and the destiny of humanity in our hands? Yes.

Paige Nolan 00:22:45:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:22:45:

The ancients had this kind of perspective, you know, when people say it's a myth, they misuse the word. Oh, that's a myth. Like that's a lie. A myth is not a lie. A myth is a way of describing a truth.

Paige Nolan 00:22:58:

Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:22:59:

And an internal truth. So my credibility, I guess, or my education comes from being steeped in that ancient wisdom, which is absolutely spot on today.

Paige Nolan 00:23:11:

Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:23:12:

In many cases, not all. I mean, the Bible also says you should take homosexuals and stone them to death. So I'm not, you know, I'm not telling you that all of it is just this incredible mythology, but much of it is particularly narrative. Part number one. Yes. So my authority, insight, whatever comes a from that. And yes, you are right, it comes from having a front row seat to life for four decades.

Paige Nolan 00:23:42:

Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:23:43:

And really seeing the human experience up close. Really up close. And seeing people in their most intimate moments.

Paige Nolan 00:23:52:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:23:53:

And I do have that shard of ice.

Paige Nolan 00:23:56:

Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:23:56:

That enables me to take notes.

Paige Nolan 00:23:59:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:24:00:

You know, enables me to think, step back and say, wow, this.

Paige Nolan 00:24:03:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:24:04:

There's a truth here being unveiled right in front of me.

Paige Nolan 00:24:08:

Well, what I was thinking earlier when you were telling us that story about how you changed in your grief work and in how you counsel and support after your dad's death, isn't that just life? That it was that way, that you had your dad until you were 57. You know, that's a long time to have your dad, especially with that level of stress that he was living through and all that. But both. And it's the. You had the shard of ice and you had the.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:24:34:

Bingo.

Paige Nolan 00:24:35:

You know, it's like what we were talking about.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:24:37:

The real experience.

Paige Nolan 00:24:38:

Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:24:39:

And the experience of voyeurism and empathy.

Paige Nolan 00:24:42:

Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:24:43:

So many others. And for whatever reason, Paige, in some ways I'm a very judgmental person, but they're mostly private ways.

Paige Nolan 00:24:52:

Yeah. Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:24:54:

To myself.

Paige Nolan 00:24:55:

Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:24:57:

I try to present, and I think successfully do present an accessible and non judgmental welcome.

Paige Nolan 00:25:06:

Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:25:07:

And before I open my mouth, when someone comes to me With a moral failure or a dilemma or a weakness, whatever. Something they're ashamed of, something they did or something they failed to do. Before I open my mouth, I really do this. I stop and I ask myself, where is that flaw in me? Yeah, I may not have done the identical thing, but when have I betrayed? When have I been betrayed? And then, and only then, do I engage. Because then I'm engaging from a place of empathy, not moral superiority.

Paige Nolan 00:25:56:

Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:25:57:

I don't know how else to be. But I also believe it's part of the reason that so many people have come to sit on what, you know, I call my couch of tears in my office, and I'm a helper.

Paige Nolan 00:26:10:

I want to ask you about this aspect of grief, since you have been on the front lines and seen so many aspects. It's like a prism, right? The light hits it in all these different ways. And we are having this conversation four weeks after wildfires have ravished the Pacific Palisades and Altadena, two of our beautiful areas. And we both live in Southern California in the Los Angeles area. And I have had a lot of conversations about people's response to this. People have been affected to varying degrees. And the particular aspect of this that I'm interested in that applies to all sorts of situations is when you go through something and you survive it to a different degree than maybe your neighbor survives it, and your situation is slightly different, but you're still feeling suffering, you're still feeling loss. And you and I were talking before we started recording about the specifics of memory loss and how that, you know, in our aging parents, because this community, listening has aging parents. And that's another conversation that comes up. Taking care of aging and particularly memory loss. It's a big deal, you know, in this community. It's a big deal in our culture, you know, and how many people it's impacting. So will you talk to us about, let's call it meeting, the moment of when guilt and loss kind of intersect and what that is about.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:27:34: Survivor's guilt, essentially.

Paige Nolan 00:27:35: Yeah. Tell us about that and how it interacts with.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:27:40: I mean, to cut to the quick, if you win the lottery, you say thank you, and you go on with your life as you should. So that's number one. And sometimes when I say that to people, you can just see their shoulders drop and the pressure, like, why do I feel guilty about winning the lottery? Yeah, I'm the lucky one. I'm going to move on with my. Enjoy my life. Okay. I have almost been killed in car crashes twice. Yeah, I wasn't. I still drive like I won the fucking lottery.

Paige Nolan 00:28:14: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:28:16: Let's go get some ice cream. So that's a blunt tool, but fundamentally, that's a part of it. Now, the other thing is, I think, and I'm going to use what most people perceive as a harsh word, but I think it's the accurate word and I think it's the only word. And I see this so much with people recovering from all sorts of losses and losses incurred by people they love.

Paige Nolan 00:28:48: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:28:49: Okay. My dad had Alzheimer's for 10 years. My father died twice. He died the first time when his mind was no longer my father's mind.

Paige Nolan 00:29:00: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:29:01: And then he died the second time when his body died. And they are both really painful. Anyone who thinks, well, I wish he would die at this point, and, I mean, I've suffered so much through all of this, and, yeah, it'll be a blessing when he does. Well, yes and no.

Paige Nolan 00:29:18: Right.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:29:19: It really hurts.

Paige Nolan 00:29:20: Different. Yeah, different.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:29:21: It really hurts. So there's a word. The word is betrayal. We tend to think of betrayal as the kind of thing that the lowest form of human engages in. Pond scum will betray you.

Paige Nolan 00:29:38: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:29:39: There's another aspect to this harsh word betrayal that I think is empowering for people, particularly people who are caregivers, for people who are suffering of dementia, Alzheimer's, or any chronic disease. It's a very helpful thing for people who lose a loved one, who not even lose. I don't like using that word because they die. People who have a love, they're dead.

Paige Nolan 00:30:07: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:30:07: By the way, I think using the proper vocabulary with children is enormously important.

Paige Nolan 00:30:11: Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:30:12: Grandpa's not sleeping.

Paige Nolan 00:30:14: Yes. I totally agree.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:30:16: His heart stopped and he died. His body died.

Paige Nolan 00:30:19: Well, part of the whole problem with why we need so much grief support is because we don't know how to talk about it from the. From the jump. We don't say, guess what, everybody's going to die. And that's part of the deal.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:30:30: And we homogenize it.

Paige Nolan 00:30:32: Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:30:32: Right.

Paige Nolan 00:30:32: We.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:30:33: A minute. The person dies, you call, and the mortuary comes and takes the body away.

Paige Nolan 00:30:37: Right.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:30:38: It's not how it used to be.

Paige Nolan 00:30:40: Right.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:30:40: Any more than we used to buy our beef and cellophane Styrofoam packages at groceries.

Paige Nolan 00:30:46: We didn't used to do that.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:30:47: You raised it. You slaughtered it, you ate it.

Paige Nolan 00:30:52: Yeah, very.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:30:53: It's.

Paige Nolan 00:30:53: It's also. I want to throw this in, too, Steve. It's like sacred text. We used to actually be contemplative. You read it, you Visit it. You had some sort of ritual with it.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:31:03: And again and again and again.

Paige Nolan 00:31:05: Yes. So it's what you were saying earlier. It's. That's. It's always been this way, but we've lost the pace, the. The moving through it.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:31:14: That's right.

Paige Nolan 00:31:14: But I want to go. I want to understand betrayal. Yeah. I want to understand that.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:31:19: So I'll give you an example. I'm making this up, but it's because I want it to be generic, so I'm not calling anyone up. But it's very common. Steve, you know, Myra's been dead for more than a year now. I know you remember. Thank you for everything you did. And my kids, they want me to start dating, and I just. I don't want to start dating because it feels so wrong, disrespectful, untrue to what we had. And I will then say, does it feel like you're betraying her?

Paige Nolan 00:32:07: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:32:08: And he will say, yes, it does. I said, well, betrayal is a necessary component of reemerging and embracing life.

Paige Nolan 00:32:20: I'm writing that down. That's so beautiful.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:32:23: It really is. And we are very DNA. Every molecule in our body, unless we're suffering from a pretty severe mental illness, every molecule in our body is striving toward life, toward light, toward meaning, toward. Toward connection. And it reemerges after terrible loss, as it should. Now, I'm not telling you that grief and mourning is a race. It's not. But there does come a point where, if you're ever going to really live again, there is some measure of betrayal required.

Paige Nolan 00:33:07: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:33:08: And once you say that to people, in many cases they pause. They think that is what it feels like. But the rabbi is telling me that that is a feeling worth honoring. Exploring and dipping my toes into the water of that kind of betrayal that.

Paige Nolan 00:33:30: Comes with embracing life and allowing it to be there. Like we talked about earlier, it's there.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:33:36: It's both, and it's a part of it. You don't get to be. You know, you got to suffer through a lot of things to get to the next thing. And that's the truth of life and death. You know, I don't know why, but this is popping into my head. It has to do with this urge for life. You know why people don't like plastic flowers?

Paige Nolan 00:34:01: Why?

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:34:03: Because they have no death. And because they have no death, they have no life.

Paige Nolan 00:34:10: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:34:11: Wallace Stevens, the poet, said, the beauty of a flower is that it fades. Now, if we can get to that place, would I say this to the Parents of a two year old. No.

Paige Nolan 00:34:22: Right.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:34:23: Would I say it to myself if, God forbid, something happened to Betsy? Eventually I would. I would say, you know, I'm still alive. I need to find out a way to live with loss.

Paige Nolan 00:34:37: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:34:37: And yes, it's an amputation. And we all know about the phantom limb I call death, the absence that is always present.

Paige Nolan 00:34:44: Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:34:45: And I wish I'd thought of that. Didn't, but I think it's perfect.

Paige Nolan 00:34:49: Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:34:49: It's the absence that is forever present. Okay, now what?

Paige Nolan 00:34:53: Right.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:34:54: Right now what? Okay. The fire happened. And I don't know about you, Paige, but I've given up all hope of a better past.

Paige Nolan 00:35:03: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:35:05: Now that's also a very powerful idea for people.

Paige Nolan 00:35:07: Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:35:08: When they come to you with regret or real loss, real pain. And I don't mean to be dismissive of that pain, but you and I, we have a job. The first job is triage.

Paige Nolan 00:35:18: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:35:18: First job is, let's just get this person headed in 180 degree direction the other way.

Paige Nolan 00:35:24: Yes, of course. Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:35:26: And one can accomplish that pretty quickly by saying, I don't know about you, but I've given all hope of a better past.

Paige Nolan 00:35:33: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:35:33: It immediately starts you thinking about the future.

Paige Nolan 00:35:36: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:35:37: Or at least the present.

Paige Nolan 00:35:38: And I think that's so powerful, especially with the fires. Cause I've had conversations where, first of all, people weren't home. So that if you weren't home, you weren't home. But some people weren't home in, like, ways that they don't think was that important. Like, why did I go to the grocery store right then? Or why did I take the dog to the vet right then? And then the people who were home, it's like, why didn't I grab that other album? Because you, my husband and I had to evacuate with our kids. But only we weren't that worried. But we just did it, you know, for 24 hours.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:36:07: We did too.

Paige Nolan 00:36:08: And so you think I having that experience. Just a few weeks ago, my husband, we took two different cars because he wanted to stay and get more stuff. Now, if our house would have burned down, I would have been glad that he did that. But I just wanted to get the kids and the dogs and I got the few things that I wanted and I would have been fine, but I think I would have regretted. You know, it's like I can relate to my clients who are talking.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:36:33: I'll tell you, I'm interested in whether this is true for you and your clients. The last book I wrote was called for you When I am gone.

Paige Nolan 00:36:41: Yes. I love that book.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:36:43: It's 12 Questions to Tell your life story, essentially. And they're based on the questions I ask in an intake meeting with a family to get my arms around the truth of this person's life, who I'm about to eulogize.

Paige Nolan 00:36:53: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:36:55: The first question in the book is, what do you regret? And what I have found over the years and through the ways in which essayists answered these questions in the book along with my answers. What most people regret most at the end of their life is not something they did, it's something they didn't do.

Paige Nolan 00:37:18: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:37:19: There are two types of. To put it in religious terms, there are two types of sins. There's the sin of commission, the things we do. And then they're the sins of omission.

Paige Nolan 00:37:28: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:37:28: Things we. The call we didn't make, the time we didn't show up, you know, the outstretched hand we didn't put a dollar bill to. Those are the things that haunt us.

Paige Nolan 00:37:41: Yeah. I relate to that because it's the courage I didn't have that I'm like, oh, why didn't I have more courage? Whereas when I make the mistake, one of the ways that I think about it is I did the best I could with the knowledge I have.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:37:55: Our mistakes of commission are much easier to normalize and live with.

Paige Nolan 00:38:01: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:38:01: Than our mistakes of omission.

Paige Nolan 00:38:04: Why is that, do you think?

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:38:06: Well, because you can apologize, you can make up.

Paige Nolan 00:38:10: Right, right.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:38:11: Rationalize.

Paige Nolan 00:38:13: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:38:13: You can undo some of the damage of a sin of com.

Paige Nolan 00:38:17: Yes. I totally get that.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:38:19: But you cannot.

Paige Nolan 00:38:21: You can't get it back. Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:38:22: Just can't.

Paige Nolan 00:38:24: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:38:24: And that is what I found on many a deathbed is I had a wish. And I still say to people, even when they're dying, you know, I don't know about you, but I'm not planning on having a better past.

Paige Nolan 00:38:35: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:38:36: And it is a relief.

Paige Nolan 00:38:38: It's a relief.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:38:39: It's stating the obvious in a way it's generally not stated.

Paige Nolan 00:38:42: Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:38:43: But the moment you realize. Well. That there's nothing I can do. The house is gone.

Paige Nolan 00:38:49: Yes. You know why it's a relief? It's because it's a reality. You know? And I think sometimes just confronting reality with an embodied presence to it is what is the most healing. It just can be terrifying.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:39:04: Isn't a diagnosis better than not knowing?

Paige Nolan 00:39:06: Right. Right.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:39:08: Because then you look. You know what I really do? I organize chaos for people.

Paige Nolan 00:39:13: Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:39:13: That's the job.

Paige Nolan 00:39:15: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:39:16: They feel like the bottom has fallen out. Of the world. And I show up and maybe I start with a joke. I'm just myself. This is extremely important when you want to help other people, they don't need you to pretend. They need you to be real.

Paige Nolan 00:39:32: Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:39:33: If you pretend, it adds to this feeling that everything is now different and it's never going to be okay.

Paige Nolan 00:39:39: Right. And it isolates the person. They're like, well, I just want to connect and make a joke. You like getting the giggles at the funeral. It's the best giggle.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:39:47: So important.

Paige Nolan 00:39:48: Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:39:49: Now, not only is it important because you're being real. Like, if you're a joker joke. If you're a crier, cry. If you're feed people, say, what should I do to help my friends their house burned down. I said, be you show up. Yeah, you. Yeah, you're a joker joke. If you're a feeder, feed. If you're an errand runner, run errands. If you're a dog walker, walk the dog. If you're a cry or cry. If you're a hugger, hug doesn't matter.

Paige Nolan 00:40:09: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:40:10: Show up and be real. Everyone knows how to do that. Paige. After 40 years of standing on a front doorstep, before I go into the home where someone, a loved one has died, after 40 years of standing in the hospital hallway, before I walk into that hospital room, after 40 years, I don't know what I'm gonna say.

Paige Nolan 00:40:29: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:40:30: All I know is I have to walk through the door, show up, and be real.

Paige Nolan 00:40:37: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:40:37: That's it.

Paige Nolan 00:40:39: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:40:40: That's everything. And again, it changes nothing.

Paige Nolan 00:40:43: Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:40:44: But it means everything.

Paige Nolan 00:40:46: So true.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:40:47: And I have also found with humor, particularly, I did a tiny little video on Instagram. I don't know, like, right after the fires, and I talked about the importance that I wasn't preaching that, hey, cheer up. It wasn't a hey, cheer up thing. It was a. I know. From all these years of seeing. Being with people whose lives have fallen apart.

Paige Nolan 00:41:08: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:41:08: The moment someone cracks a joke, like if at the funeral or after the funeral or when I'm doing the intake and someone says, yeah, well, when mom is out of town, you know, we went to 711 for dinner, and everybody laughs. I know they may not. I know they have subconsciously made the decision to survive.

Paige Nolan 00:41:33: Yes.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:41:34: To laugh is to choose life.

Paige Nolan 00:41:37: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:41:38: You know, I look in the corner when I go back to a house after a funeral and everybody's gathering and I see the widow, like, really enjoying that piece of chocolate cake.

Paige Nolan 00:41:47: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:41:48: And I think to myself, she's gonna make it. She doesn't know she's gonna make it. Yes, but she's gonna make it.

Paige Nolan 00:41:56: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:41:57: There were jokes in Auschwitz.

Paige Nolan 00:42:00: Yes. You have to. It's life, it's vitality, that you're still alive. You're still alive until the moment you know the very end.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:42:10: And it's hope.

Paige Nolan 00:42:11: And it's hope. Can you tell us what you believe is beautiful about human life? And can we end on what is beautiful about your life? Now you've retired or semi retired, whatever you would consider yourself. So I want both the rabbi version and the wisdom and the hours with human nature. And I love just this, you as a man.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:42:36: So I'm not trying to oversimplify or deflect. I'm really not. But the first answer that comes to my mind is, everything.

Paige Nolan 00:42:48: Oh, oh, that makes my eyes water.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:42:51: Everything. But you have to turn it and turn it and turn it and turn it and sometimes suffer and sometimes be frustrated and confused. But in my view, you know, this word spirituality, it gets thrown around a lot, and it's been so overused that it has.

Paige Nolan 00:43:17: No, I totally agree. I totally agree.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:43:20: And no anymore. And when you're a rabbi, like, if you're a dermatologist, people show you. They text you pictures of ugly stuff on their body, or they. You're a cocktail party, they want you to look at a mole. If you're a rabbi, people want to, like, play this game called Stump the Rabbi. So they'll ask you these deep existential questions, like, rabbi, what's the meaning of life? You know, you're sitting at a dinner party, and so, rabbi, you know, people say to me, well, I'm not religious, but I'm spiritual. What does that mean? And I have come to the conclusion that what it means to be a spiritual person and to lead a spiritual life is to commit to the notion that there is no such thing as a small blessing. If it's a blessing, it is enormous. You know, all. All faiths I know of have a prayer for bread or before you eat.

Paige Nolan 00:44:30: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:44:31: Why? Why a prayer over something as mundane as bread?

Paige Nolan 00:44:37: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:44:37: And the answer, of course, is if you can be grateful for bread, then you can be grateful for many, many things. So even what is ugly or painful.

Paige Nolan 00:44:52: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:44:53: Is exquisitely beautiful because it wakes us up. You know, Marshall McLuhan, I love this Marshall McLuhan, Canadian philosopher. He said, I don't know who discovered water, but it wasn't the fish.

Paige Nolan 00:45:09: So good that it's so wise. I love it, really.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:45:13: Job's point, that's God's point to Job, too.

Paige Nolan 00:45:15: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:45:16: You know, why doesn't the fish know about water? Because it's born in water, lives in water, dies.

Paige Nolan 00:45:20: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:45:21: Doesn't know it's in water.

Paige Nolan 00:45:23: Yeah.

Rabbi Steve Leder 00:45:24: And does the fish discover water when it's yanked out of it on the end of a hook and it's flailing around, gasping for air? That's when a fish discovers water. Now, when did I discover the deepest, most powerful truth about life and death? When I saw my father's dead body. And it was painful and sobering and powerful and resulted in a more beautiful life for me. So when you ask me, like, what is beautiful? Everything.

Paige Nolan 00:46:01: Here's what I take with me from my time with Rabbi Steve Lieder. Two of the most powerful words ever spoken from parent to child could be, you lead. It's encouraging to use these words when your children are very young. It's essential and maybe even life defining to use these words with your teenagers and young adults. To laugh is to choose life. Betrayal is a necessary component of reemerging and embracing life. Accepting that feeling, this betrayal is a part of the human experience, can help us rise from loss. It's a good idea to give up all hope for a better past. Humility and empathy are connected. When we're humble, we're open and willing to see our flawed humanity. And this makes it possible for us to relate to someone else's flawed humanity and understand their experience more fully. Sometimes we overthink how to show up for others who are grieving. Just being your authentic self is exactly what people need. It doesn't change anything, but it means everything. Commit to the notion that there is no such thing as a small blessing. This time with Rabbi Steve Leader is no small blessing. I'm so grateful we now have Steve's words for inspiration and guidance and mostly for hope. Thank you, Steve. It was truly lovely to get this time with you. I appreciate everything you shared with us. But the thing that moves me the most is that you've seen so much of life. You've witnessed so much heartache up close and walked alongside people through the hardest times in their lives. And you've walked through the valleys of your own life, and still you choose to find beauty everywhere in everything. That beauty is everywhere in everything is one of your greatest teachings. And this beautiful life of service that you've led is the truth of that teaching. This is a truth that is available to all of us. All right, that's it for now, y'all. I will meet you here again soon. Thanks to each of you for being here and for listening. I'm so grateful we get to share life in this way. As always, full show notes are available@paigenolan.com podcast. There you will find a full summary of the episode, timestamps and key takeaways, and any resources mentioned in our conversation. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love if you would leave me a rating and a review. You can do that by visiting paigenolan.com Love your reviews, really do help people to discover the show. And if you know someone specifically who would enjoy this episode, I'm so grateful to have you all share. I'll meet you there with your friends. Lastly, if you have any questions or comments or if you would like to share any feedback with me, please email to meetme thereagenolan.com I would love to hear from you. Thank you to the team that makes this show possible. Podcast production and marketing by North Node Podcast Network Music by Boyd McDonnell Cover photography by Innis Casey okay y'all, that's it for now. I'll meet you there again.