S2E11 Steph Wagner on Empowering Women Through Financial Freedom

North Node. The truth is it wasn't the loss of my earning power that was so catastrophic. Yes.You know, I kind of had an arrogance that I could always go back to work and it's not always that easy. As. As I soon found out. Not soon found out, but eventually found out.But what happened underneath my nose was I began to lean out of all aspects of my financial life. And I think the reality is something I really want to stress if I can. Paige, nobody wakes up and says, I think I'll lose my financial independence.That sounds like such an awesome idea, right? No, it just happens over time.

Hi, I'm Paige Nolan. Welcome to I'll Meet yout There. A place where heart centered conversations are everything. Living what matters is the truest thing.

And sharing the journey is the best.

Hi everyone, and welcome back. Today we're talking about money.My guest is a leader in women's wealth and financial empowerment and she is the best guide because she has lived her lessons. She knows exactly how important it is for women to take control of their wealth and build lives they love because she did that for herself.My guest is Steph Wagner and she is on a mission to help us get wealthy and wise about our money.Steph serves as the National Director of Women and wealth at Northern Trust, where she leads the firm's advisory practice for women and its Elevating women platform.This is a national program focused on building financial literacy and helping women use their wealth to create meaningful impact in their families, in their businesses, and in their communities. Steph has been advising women for years. She's a frequent media contributor.Her voice has been featured in the Wall Street Journal, in the New York Times, and many other outlets. And I'm excited to share with y' all today that Steph has written her first book.The book is entitled A Woman's Guide to Financial Freedom and building a life you Love. And in it, Steph beautifully shares her story and outlines her practical approach to building wealth. That's what we talk about today in our episode.You're going to hear Steph share her personal journey and you'll understand why she's so committed to her mission. Steph describes herself as a tools over rules person and she offers a lot of useful tools in this conversation.She doesn't believe in a budget and you'll find out why. But she does believe in getting very honest with yourself.Know where your money's going and become more conscious about the financial choices you're making. Everything that Steph shares can help you feel more confident about money. And more capable in growing your wealth.This episode is absolutely for women of any age. And it's also for all of us, women and men and parents who are in charge of teaching their young people about money.Steph's perspective is going to help you think differently about money. And being empowered in your finances has everything to do with being empowered in your life. This one is a great episode to share.Money is a tricky topic for all of us, and Steph is an encouraging leader who shows us what is possible with knowledge and intention. Enjoy my conversation with Steph Wagner.

So I know, Steph, you had a big wake up call. Financial independence for you was dramatic. It was a moment.But before we get to that moment, because I am curious about you sharing with our listeners that moment. I'd love to hear a little bit about your early life, what that childhood home was like.This is where I take a lot of my clients when we're talking about money is your early messages around money and just the environment of the home. Financially secure as a kid. Not so much like invite us into that part of your life and then take us into the dramatic all.Yes, they're gonna hear that.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, you know what, what's funny is I kind of didn't.I never really thought about my childhood, to be quite honest, until I was part of my. The work I was doing to rebuild my emotional work. And I started to realize, oh, my gosh, my child had a lot more to do with this than I thought.So I'm glad you asked that. I grew up in what I thought was a very financially secure family. I, from the outside, in every thought, everyone thought we were affluent. We drove.My parents drove fancy cars. We lived in a gated neighborhood. My dad belonged to the country club. And money felt like it was abundant.But what I honestly, I remember a moment in my, in my childhood where my dad actually won a golf tournament. And the car he. Well, excuse me, he won. He got a hole in one at a golf tournament.

Yeah.

And the prize was a car, but he actually had to turn around and sell the car to pay our taxes. Oh, wow. And I think I was like in my early years of high school, and I was so confused. And I was just like, this is weird. Like, this feels icky.And suddenly, honestly, I began to realize that money was such a source of stress and conflict. Plus, you know, I didn't grow up in a very happy home. There was a lot of domestic violence. My mom was very much controlled by my dad.And so money was also a source of control. And it wasn't something we talked about at all. That certainly was a factor. And frankly, it became even more a factor as I reflect.And I'll get into my pivotal moment as I reflect into my own behavior with money in my marriage. But I went to usc. I met my college sweetheart. I was super, super driven. Really didn't even want to get married based on how I was raised.I just really didn't want anything to do with that. But again, I fell in love. But I was driven to go to Wall street, you know, And I was so fortunate to get a job in investment banking. Yeah.And soon after, private equity.

Yes.

So I love money. I loved.

This is what's so interesting about your story to me. You know, that if.If something like this can happen to you where you need to understand financial independence and you are someone who has studied money, you've had ambition to work with money, and then you did work with money.

Agree, agree. And you know, I frankly thought everybody liked money, like understood math. And I didn't really realize what a taboo subject it was.And honestly, the insecurity around money that so many women had. So to your point.

Yeah.

I started my career in it. Loved it. Wayne and I really had kind of an equal partnership during the early days around money. But it wasn't until we began to have children.And I think this is something that so many women struggle with because as life changes, we feel that pull, that tug between kind of our careers and the rest of our lives.

Yes.

And that's what happened to me. You know, to me that was kind of the beginning of my loss of financial autonomy without me even knowing it.

Yeah.

And I'll dig into that a little bit. Please. But I. There was a moment where I was asked to go look at a deal in rural Alabama to get on a four seater Cessna.I was pregnant, six months pregnant. I had a two year old at home. My husband at the time was traveling 150 plus nights a year. And something had to give again.That poll that I just mentioned.

Yeah.

And I quit. I literally quit like the next day. And I didn't have a mentor to talk to. I think that's really important.I didn't have a community to share this inner struggle. And honestly, I really never stopped to think there was another option. I thought it was my responsibility.And all that kind of worked until it didn't. But the truth is it wasn't the loss of my earning power that was so catastrophic. Yes. I kind of had an arrogance that I could always go Back to work.And it's not always that easy, as I soon found out. Not soon found out, but eventually found out. But what happened underneath my nose was I began to lean out of all aspects of my financial life.And I think the reality is something I really want to stress if I can. Paige. Yeah. Nobody wakes up and says, I think I'll lose my financial independence. That sounds like such an awesome idea. Yeah. Right?No, it just happens over time. Yeah. Until we have that earth shattering moment where we realized, oh, my gosh, what do we do to ourselves?And mine came 14 years later on a park bench in Washington, D.C. when my husband basically told my kids he was moving out and leaving. I had found out that he was in love with another woman, had been having an affair and everything. My life was shattered.And it was my wake up call of, I have no idea what money we have.

Yeah.

I have no earning power. I don't even. All I had was a Bank of America credit card in my wallet.

Yeah.

And I. And keys to the house. Yeah. And I didn't even know the credit limit on that. So, you know, I think my mission has come out of that.And to your point, if it can happen to me, a financially savvy person, it can happen to anyone.And we can't have shame around it because at the end of the day, we're just doing the best we can, trying to juggle this crazy thing called life, raise a family, and try to have a career, all of that. And that is really tough.

Yeah.You and I have talked about our overlap with our jobs, and I had a similar moment when I felt like my life was under strain, to your point of working, children, marriage. And I had studied women, work and family in grad school.Like, I thought if I could master it theoretically, like, I. I love this stuff, and I don't want to lose myself the way my mom lost herself. And my parents are still married, and my parents are great, but the balance of power was very much.Dad could do what he wanted, and mom was doing the family. And I should. I should be a little bit more gracious with that, with men, because the weight of the world, he was the breadwinner.So, I mean, God bless him for that. Both of my parents worked, but I thought, I, you know, I'm interested in this stuff. I'm interested in women's empowerment.I'm interested in leading my family. And then what do I go and do is completely lost myself in that balance that you describe of, like, I just couldn't keep track of all of it.And stay connected to myself.So I think both of our missions overlap in that way, is to help women with our stories, to be more intentional with their lives and have those hard conversations with themselves first and with their partners.

Absolutely.I. I love that you just said that because I think so often we jump in and start wanting to communicate, but we have to first communicate with ourselves and have really honest conversations. And that is what.When I reference the work I did, you know, frankly, that was over hours and hours and hours of cycling up the coast of California and I discovered biking because it was my therapy. It was where I could be alone, you know, and I couldn't get distracted.And as I'm going, I could think, think, you know, you're going too fast to like, yeah, look at a house or, oh, look at that. Yeah. You. You're literally. And I would think and think and do a lot of the self work of how did I get in this mess?

Yeah.

You know, why did I abdicate and turn all this over to him when I knew this stuff and probably could have done a better job? And I think again, going back to my early years, there was so much fighting in my house over money and control and conflict. And then also I just.I didn't want any type of that stress in my life. And yet here I was. I just. All I did was kick the can down the road because the stress came later.

Yeah.

Now I'm alone. And now I have to rebuild. Now I have to protect these three little boys. Yeah. Make sure I don't end up living with them when I'm 70.

Yes.How soon after this moment of abandonment or whatever you would call it, the marriage falling apart, how soon after do you gather yourself and say, I really need to figure my shit out? Like.

Yeah. So I'm going to be completely honest. I guess I wrote in the book, the timeline I don't talk about.This is part of one thing that I'm still working on myself to get over the shame around. And I do reference 15 months in the book, but I literally tried so hard in almost sacrifice myself more and more every day to save this marriage.Yeah. And I think so many women, you know that again, I knew I had friends judging me, thinking I was crazy.Why was I giving him a second, third, fourth chance? But it's easy to judge people when you're not in someone's shoes.And frankly, I needed those 15 months to process and to really figure out, like, what was I dealing with? And also I think I needed to hit rock Bottom, you know, And. And so it was a long period of time of really trying to save this.But there was a moment when I learned that he had never ended it and now affected my children because we had just uprooted them and moved to try to start over. Yeah. He didn't do his part. And that's when the mama bear was like, I'm done. Like, you can mess with me. Yeah. You can't mess with these babies any.Any more than you already have. I'm done. Get out. And, yeah. And. And it was.That was power I started to discover in myself and the strength that I had always have, being a survivor in my family of domestic violence, to be honest. And all that I witnessed as a little girl had always been strong. But I'd lost myself.

Yes.

And that strength began to bubble up, and it was like, no.

Yeah.

No. I've given him so many chances, so many minutes, like, really good moments of my life. And no more. Like, it's time. I gotta take back my power.I gotta get busy.

I wanna just acknowledge that for a second. Cause I. I think there may be some people listening that have that wavering back and forth and, why am I still here?And that mama bear has multiple different experiences, expressions.And I have found in women's lives, I would rather be in a conversation with you like we are right now, and you reflect back and say, I did everything I could.

Amen.

Then I left too fast.

Amen.

I just. I've been up close and personal with so many women. It's like, okay, you did it, but you did it.

But I have no regrets.

Yes.

Yes, I. And in the process, I. All of that help me really see the wounds that I needed to heal.

Yes.

You know, and if I had children.

Like, to stay in that dwelling, like to stay in your home, even though there's tension and you're going back and forth. And by the way, I really appreciated this part of the book.Thank you for sharing so much of that experience because it's so relatable and it really helps us understand how you have come to. To the knowledge, the mission, and the offerings that you now, you know, the lessons, and also the financial support that you give women.

So it's a beautiful part of your story.

But I really think for children, it's really hard to leave impulsively when you're as committed as a parent as you are. Well, yeah.

And also, like, he was the love of my life. Like, he was my best friend, and he was living a life that I didn't Know about. Right.So he was trekking out, but doing a really good job of, of masking.

Yeah.

And honestly, I was probably so comfortable and, and just kind of thinking this is just what it's like when you're busy with little kids of, you know, feeling a little detached. So it takes two. Clearly, in a marriage where there's issues. I just didn't know there was. Like we never. I just didn't know there was.But you know, it's funny because I think for a long time I stayed for the sake of the boys.

Sure.

And then the irony is, is I left for the sake of the boys.

Yeah.

At the end of the day, it was like, no, I'm done. And the real hero in this, as you probably could read in the book, was my oldest son.

Yes.

Who in so many ways my oldest son took on this Persona that I had with my own mom as I was trying to get her out of an abusive relationship. Yeah. Here I was putting myself in that same awful, different type of abuse, but emotionally just toxic.And then here's this beautiful 13 year old little boy who. I was a little girl, but who's trying to do the same for me.And it was a really, it's, it's, it's a really special thing for me, you know, as I reflect. Because he was trying to save me as much as I was trying to save my mom. And it was all those years later. So. Yeah.But I also think it, and I loved how you worded it, we have to have grace on ourselves. We're just doing the best we can.

Yes.

Yeah. And I think until you go through something like this and hopefully no one goes through anything as traumatic as, you know, some of this.The stories I share. But we all have our stories that we have more grace on other women that we're not so quick to judge.

Yeah.

Because I did judge before my life fell apart. And that was a real lesson. Yeah. Was. No, no, no. Yeah. This can't happen to you. Or you think you're immune to struggles. Yeah. No, no one is.

And also about money, to your point. It's like we barely know our own money stories.

Yeah.

You can't ever judge why somebody is staying or leaving or because you have no idea what their financial life is like. And you give us in the book a great history of that as women. You know, historically, we just got a credit card in 1974.I mean, it's like our, it's, we're later to this game of like really managing our own money.

Totally. I thank you for bringing that up. And I want to just say that again and reinforce like in our lifetime.

Yes.

We could not have debt.

Yes.

Without a male co signer or a bank had the right to charge us more interest because they thought we were at higher risk.

Yes.

So if we're like, yes. A lot of our lack of confidence is in our head. It's between our ears. We actually are good with this.But a lot of it, it's because we were somewhat socialized to say we're crappy at managing money.

So.

Right. We have to change it.

Yeah, yeah.

Change the script inside our head and we have to push back. Unfortunately, we've evolved as a society and, and you know, I think there's that, that those days are gone. But it wasn't that long ago.

It wasn't that long ago. So in your conviction, you know, you leave for the boys. You say for the boys and you leave for the boys.

Yeah.

Then you have this awareness that you've got to do something. You don't. You have a clear sense of getting organized about your money. You've got to get a job. Talk to us about those early days of.Once you've been now able to center your nervous system, to use a kind of coaching word in the nervous system. But you know, you can't really think.

Straight for a year or two. Well, you're. And then you do you. Yeah. Your life is literally burned to the ground and now you're building it back up brick by brick.You know, it's so interesting because there was a lot I couldn't control. I had been out of the workforce formally for 14 years. Yeah. I had an amazing career.But when I had a career in private equity, we didn't even have email. We had phone, fax and FedEx. So I was very dated.

Yeah.

I mean it was. There's a lot of combipes on my, on my resume. But. And so getting a job and this is a whole nother topic.But as I began to look what my, what was available to me, I would have been making a fraction, I mean we're talking potentially 40% of what my first job out of USC as an investment banking analyst would have been.

Yeah.

At a time when my self worth is already at an all time low. Talk about going and doing it, starting over like that. Knowing all those.At 40, you know, nearly 20 years later, I was going to be 40, 40% less or even more. So I didn't focus on income.

Yeah.

That was going to come later. I focused on. And frankly to Your point? I was emotionally a basket case. I leaned into my self worth, was at an all time low.I leaned into what I could control and I was like, okay, Steph, you may not know anything about personal finance, but you have an unbelievable background in corporate finance and, you know, a really deep experience working in, you know, business finance. And they're kind of related.

Yeah.

You know, the terminology might be different, but you've got the skills. And so I truly.In addition, the first step was unpacking the why behind some of my relationship with money and really coming to terms with the decisions I've made and the why behind them. When I began to take action, I really leaned into my knowledge and what I could control. And that was surveying the landscape.You know, all right, what do I have to work with? How am I going to start getting wise with the money I actually have out of this divorce? Yeah.So that I can put myself in a better position to have more flexibility on the career part, because I had to rebuild that too.

Yeah.

I think too often we jump to, I got to go out and make money. And we do, don't get me wrong. But then we neglect that. How do we. What are we going to do with that money?

Yes.

Do we have a framework in place? Do we have a plan so that we can become intentional with how we're going to grow wealth, protect wealth, and eventually obtain security to.To make sure that we don't run out of that money? Yeah.

Do you think it matters what comes first?Whether you're analyzing your outflow, which I want to talk about about with you, versus having a vision for what you're going to do with your money, or do you think those two things? Obviously in the book it's outlined a certain way, but just in your own mind and in your own life, are we doing those?Because I have a lot of clients, and myself included, who have needed, like to know where your money's going, which you call outflow. What are you spending money on is a real discipline. Like you have to take inventory.

Totally.

And you talk about that in the book and I want you to talk about it here. But just in my own curiosity, like, did you know? Did you have a vision?

So I did. And, and, and that came. But I'll tell you why. Because I knew emotionally I was lost. Yeah.I, I knew that I had to start getting excited about something.

Yes. I had to start creating new goals.

And frankly, I had to start dreaming big to find that stuff that lived inside of me all those years ago. I had to to find her again. To not live in a world of scarcity and fear, paralyzed by. Am I making the wrong move?I had to really shift my mindset and start. What do I want my life to look like? 5, 10, 15 years to go? Do I wanna start a business? Do I wanna.Now that may not be the best first step for everyone because everybody's in different places of life.

Sure.

But where I was as emotionally lost and devastated and lost my identity, quite frankly, I was a mom and a wife. And now I was like really scary. I didn't know who I was anymore and what was my purpose and what's my passion.So for me, yes, and for many women, I think, that find themselves lost and in that terrible mucky place, maybe.But I had to set something so that as I was taking inventory and surveying the landscape and figuring out, you know, not only what my spending was, could I cut back so that I could save more to invest in these goals that I had? Or what do I have to work with? You know, what are the assets that I have?Do I need to look at them a little differently to maybe fund investing in a business? I needed it, but not everybody else do. Yeah, every single person needs to understand.

What they have, a hundred percent. And now as I'm hearing you talk, I like the idea of people taking the time to envision because I think we need that positive invitation forward.Otherwise you just feel like, you know, it's another thing to do. Oh, I have to sit down with my partner or I. And it's so overwhelming for people.I come up against this all the time when I'm talking about money with my clients. And it can be quite frankly, we just sent two twin girls to.

To college.

So we had a lot of money conversations in the last nine months that were really challenging. And I consider myself someone who's not afraid to look at money. I look at my bank accounts every day. I know where money goes in and out.I'm tracking my credit card and all my spending. But to look at two college tuitions and then we have another child in private school and just the dream of your kid, then what your kid.What part of that dream is your kid's responsibility? Because there's a certain amount of money in the 529 and then it's going to run out.

Right.

So depending on what college you pick and intuition. So that was all confronting.But my point here is that I think starting with the vision for someone who is listening to this and being pulled forward by the possibilities and the Uplifting. Part of that versus oh, now I have to do this. It's another thing I have to do.

Motivator. Yeah, it's a motivator. It's like, it's.I like how you're phrasing this because it's, it's that thing if you wanted to stay in avoidance and bear your head in the sand, it's pulling it out because you've got a goal and you've got to do this in order to achieve your goal.

Yes. And do you find that people avoid. That's what I want to get to.

Oh yeah.

You're a big proponent of inventory. In fact, I think you suggest 12 months of tracking or. Yeah. Tell me more about how you track.

What I do is first you can take inventory of everything. You know, I think too often in this country there is so much focus on what we make and not what our net worth is.

Right.

And so we're obsessed with the dollars amount of our paycheck and that defines our worth in our wealth.But in reality, what's really the wealth you have is what you do with that income to build your net worth and other things that you do to build your net worth. So you've got to look at all of that.You've got to look at your assets and your debts and not just look at the balances, but really understand what do you have access to what might be illiquid. Meaning you can't access that cash because it needs to be sold. Like a home or a business or.

Yeah.

An investment property, all of that stuff. Even on your. The debt side. All right, you got debt. But there is such thing as good debt and there is such thing as bad debt. Yeah, yeah.So what's the interest rate? What are the terms of that? That's what I mean. And the book kind of dives into the how and all the nuances of what you need to know.But then you need to look at your spending.

Yeah.

Your outflows.And the way the 12 months that you're referring to is you can't just look at a month because there's a lot of expenses, insurance things, car maintenance or home maintenance or things that don't necessarily become a monthly outflow, they're more on a quarterly or even a one time basis. And if you don't go back and look at all your spending and it is kind of a tough exercise, but it's critical if you want change.So if you want to do the work in the book, it is the most important thing that you do as you do that homework. That's where the 12 months comes in. It's to make sure that you have a full picture.And yet you're not misleading yourself to think, I'm only spending this. But really. Oh, my gosh, I Forgot about that $5,000 repair bill for the roof that had healed. You know what I mean? Or whatever the case may be. Yeah.

We did an exercise with our girls before they went to college, where I just printed out. I have a separate credit card for their expenses. And I printed it out. Just one month of expenses with different highlighters.And they had to highlight skin. You know, this generation loves skincare, so it was like Sephora. And they love going, we're in at Los Angeles.So they love going to Alfred's and getting their cup of coffee or their iced whatever, and they go to the movies or then they buy a piece of clothing. And as they were doing it, Steph, I mean, we got the. It was just the three of us.I didn't even do it with my husband because I didn't even want him at the table. I just wanted. I wanted just girl all time. Like you and me. I get it. I get. Even though I barely wear makeup, but I. I have empathy for it.And I mean, by the end, their face was like, oh, my gosh. They're like, mom, I can't believe we've been this. But it was so empowering, and it was really bonding.So for people listening with teenagers, like to really print out. And I'm a big. Some people are more digital. I'm a big paper.

Yeah.

Make them go through, read if they don't see. See where it is bought from. You know, like, find what store that was and try to remember that moment that you bought.Because then, now they don't live with us anymore. And I think that exercise brought so much consciousness to their behavior.

I love that you did it. I love that you did that. And you pulled them in. Because I'm often asked, when's it too early to be doing this? It's never too early.The exercises that you do. Depends on the age. Yeah. What a great exercise, Particularly a gift of. Of an educational moment before they left for college.

Yeah.

I love the reaction of, I didn't know I spent that much.

Oh, yeah.

We don't. We have. We don't.

We don't.

And they stop when you go and look. Yeah. Those little things add up. Yeah.

They wanted to not be highlighting. They're like, I have to highlight again. I'm like, you have to Highlight again. That was like the 17th drink you've bought this month.But I want to talk to you about this notion of you're not a big budget person. And I hear this a lot, and I'm not either. So talk to us about how you break it down.The rule that, you know, teach your clients and that you hold in your own life.

This.

I was, I found this to be so empowering because I hear that a lot. I don't want to be on a budget and then husbands and wives fight about it.

Yeah.

You know, so talk to us about your take on that.

So the, the intent of all of my curriculum and just frankly, my style around this is really empowering. I am tool based, not rule based, because rules, I mean, who wants to be told what to do? We want to think for ourselves.We want to build confidence around our decisions. And that something you build upon. Right. Nobody can give you confidence. You have to earn it. It has to grow inside of you.So the, the framework you're talking about is really around your spending on a proactive basis because. And it's called the 45, 2035 model. But the reason before I go into that, I don't like budgets is a. It's really hard to track all your spending.We have a sense of we're on track and then we go back and look and we're defeated. We feel just like your daughters. Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

Shame. And the.

Yeah.

We're already feeling like crappy around this topic. Why do we want to create a vehicle that makes us feel worse? You know, and so in. I just don't believe in them. I.Because like I said, I think it's hard to track. And baby, you wait until time has passed. Yeah. And you're looking back and you're like, I failed.

Yeah.

That doesn't feel uplifting. And absolutely going against everything that we're talking about at the end of the day.So I use this framework to say 45% of your net income, again, it's the money that's hitting your bank account should go to what I call your unavoidables. Those are things to put a roof over your head to get from place to place.So a car or depending on where you live, other types of transportation fees or costs, utilities and insurance.And typically for the most of us in America, that's insurance outside of our medical, because a lot of us have our medical covered by our companies that we work for. If you have your own business, this might look a little bit different. So within that, there Are wants and needs.But for the most part these are fixed expenses. They fluctuate a little bit and they're you. They're unavoidable.Then at least 20% it's non negotiable needs and at least needs to go to your net worth. It's growing your future. Right. It's all about building your future. Now how you spend that depends on your circumstance. There are certain priorities.You gotta make sure you have a. An emergency fund, something that you have access to cash in case something happens.

Yeah.

Because we don't want you relying on credit card. Because if you rely on a credit card all that does is build up bad debt and that takes away from your net worth.So do you have six to nine months worth of expenses saved up?

Yeah.

Or at least access. Maybe you have it through a line of credit or other type of vehicle. But do you have access to something liquid to cover if there's an emergency?Do you have credit card bad debt to pay?

Yeah.

If you do, those need to be priorities.Are you maxing out what you're allowed to save for retirement either in your IRA or, or plans through your business, through your company or excuse me, your job, 401k, things like that. And then if not, are you diverse? Should you be looking at maybe expanding your investments into other things outside of your retirement accounts?Because remember, retirement accounts are restricted. You can only really use them without massive. Which we don't want you doing.

Right.

And then you kind of go in this once, you know that you got, you know. And again, it takes time to make sure that you've gone down and you have achieved all the priorities. I also want people investing in themselves. Yeah.You know, maybe you want to earn more. Okay.Are there credentials that you want to go invest in and, and, or maybe something you want to go back to school for that will help you earn more, that will help you save more your net worth.

So you, you consider that the personal development piece. I do part of the 20. I do the investing in the future. Okay, that's good.

Because again the rule is it's all about investing in your future.

Yes.

Now I wouldn't want somebody to go and do that before they pay off that debt.

Yes.

Because we've got to be getting ourselves on a better place before we go and say I got to really focus on some. Or even maybe travel or some of this stuff that's filling our soul. Yeah, yeah. No. And then the following.The remaining 35, I call that our empowerment money.That is money that we put aside to say, yes, it's going towards groceries, but I have to be intentional about it to make sure that I don't spend beyond the 45%. Yeah. Or gas. You know, I mean, I look at my son all the time, and he's like, oh, my God, the gas. He's up in college. He's a senior.Mike, Gas to fill up the tank. I'm like, but did you have to go on four road trips? Like, literally, you and your buddies went on four different road trips to go play golf.That adds up. It's about intentionality. Right. So when you say you, you kind of do it this way, you get more confident and intentional around the decisions.Now, some people may live in an area of the country that requires more than 45% to be paid, you know, for their housing and all of that. Well, it's got to come somewhere. Yeah. So it's got to come out of that empowerment money. And then you have less to spend on discretionary things.So to me, it's just a framework that makes you be in more control versus letting money control you or feeling that sense of failure. Yeah. Miss some of the mark.

When you have worked with women at these different points in their lives, and you've worked with people at all ages, talk to us about helping various types of women through this. You give great examples in the book. What do you find is challenging for people? Like, what is hard about that? Is it. Do they feel restricted?Like, oh, I used to buy all organic fruits, and now I'm buying less organic fruit. You know, like, what's the big barrier there?

Yeah, it's mental. You know, just tell me more about that. It's not. It's mental.Number one, the biggest barrier is this lack of confidence that certainly shouldn't exist. I understand why it exists, but they're like, I don't get this stuff. I don't want to do this stuff. I don't want to look at it.And they bury their head. I have literally had women in workshops. I'll never forget this. And it was honestly.And I'll align it to the chapter of the book, it's chapter six, which is expand your knowledge, where I start explaining how money actually works and how opportunity costs and compounding and how it grows and. And the math behind it. And I had a woman stand up and she's like, ladies, we got this. This is not that hard. And it's like, thank you.So it was amazing. But there was something that hit that. She's like, I thought this was going to be Much more complicated than it really was.And I'm like, no, guys, if you can map, if you can add, subtract, multiply and divide, you got it. You know, it's a way of thinking.And once you adopt and are exposed to that way of thinking, you start to understand the opportunity cost of the choices you're making. And you feel empowered that if I actually didn't do this, but did this instead.

Yeah.

So much better off I'd be.You tend to not care as much about letting go of some of those habits around to your point about I'm used to doing this and now I have to change course.You also prioritize what's really important and maybe organic is right and you're going to prioritize that, but you'll let go of something else because you can't have it all.

Like the more expensive wine.

Right.

You know, or the designer. I mean, you talk about in your book and I think about this a lot, like what needs to be design or what's high, low.Like maybe you can buy your jeans at Marshalls or Zara or a bigger box store, but you're getting really nice blouses.

But you get, you get creative and then that kind of is almost a game. And then almost it makes it kind of a challenge and fun. That's. Yeah. And I talk about that later.You know, it's one thing to have a plan, but if you're not, if you don't know how to execute it and.

Yes.

And incorporate all this in your daily life and kind of make it a game.

Yes.

I mentioned ways I know which I.

Know you have three different examples. Which of the games do you feel like people that you probably have more than you put in the book. But what's an example of how to make it playful?

Yeah. Well, I'll tell you one is a couple. But I'll tell you one that I use all the time is it's like that seven day challenge, right? Yeah.We tend to be such just a society of impulse purchase. We see something and now we live in a world where it's so easy to be impulsive. Yes. Click. And we don't.It's so hard, so much harder psychologically to part with cash than it is with plastic or a click of a button.

Yes.

On your computer. And so those impulse purchases just honestly are getting worse and worse.Well, the seven day challenge that I talk about in the book is just wait seven days. Yeah. See if you even care in seven days. It's amazing how many times you're like, I can't even believe I wanted that like a doll.

And especially if it's after 10pm So I take a bubble bath every night. And I know I probably shouldn't be on digital, but I do. I scroll through Instagram. I send dumb videos to my girlfriends, you know, from the bathtub.And I buy stuff that I wake up the next morning, and I'm like, why did I buy? And there's this great study in the book that you. You talk about subscriptions.

Yeah.

And that the average American thinks that they spend $84 on subscriptions, and we actually spend 219. Okay, Steph, this is a true story.I got a little ping on my phone that I had bought a face yoga app, which is moving your face in certain ways so you don't have to do Botox, which I actually think.

Is kind of intriguing.

So I'm, like, doing my mouth like this, you know, for like, 24 hours. I didn't know I had bought the whole app. I was like, oh, this is cool. Like, I'm gonna start doing face yoga.I want to stay natural, but I don't want to be too wrinkly. And it brings my phone. And I have paid 140 for the whole year. And I. I didn't know it. I'm totally overwhelmed by canceling it.And this all came to right, because I'm reading your book and I'm like, I should figure out how to cancel that.

Subscribe. I'm glad I made it because I.

Knew I was talking to you.

I love it. That makes me so. Yeah.

So anyone listening? If you've bought an app in the last month or two and maybe it's not one that you're proud of.I don't know if I'm proud of face Yoga app, but it is something. We'll see. I'll let you know. Maybe I'll be having a guest that's like a face yoga expert one day.

Let me know how it works.

Yeah. So I'm sure you find that. That people are uncovering hidden costs.

Oh. Oh, my gosh. All the time.

Yeah.

I mean, I just did it this week. I was traveling, and I was just scrolling. I always. It's my money date. Yeah, but I saw that. I'm like, wait a minute. We have two prime accounts.Like, why do we have two? Like, you have. And also, honestly, I think some of the. The businesses out there are. It's. They've designed it so that we follow for sure.

Oh, for sure.

It's not intentional. And Some of it is very much intentional, but we have to be connected to it.

Yeah.

But no, I see it. And certainly with my son away at college, I mean, he knows, like, he's like, mom's on the rampage.

So did you start doing the money dates with yourself right away after, when you were getting your life realigned?

Yeah. I mean, truth is, is once you took. Once you survey the landscape and you do all this work. Right. Yeah, it truly is. It's a.It's a heavy lift to go and track for 12 months and really make note of this. Yeah. And I have resources, even on my website, that can help, you know, get organized around this beyond the book.But you've done all that work, stay connected.

Yes.

Right. So I started those immediately after that. But I recommend in the book, and if.Even if you're not doing it immediate, that once you create a plan and the book kind of walks through how to do that, you gotta stay on track, because planning is one thing, but if you don't know how to execute, as I said, it just. It's gonna. It's never gonna. You're not gonna execute. It's not gonna be sticky.So the money date is something that truly allows you to spend 15, 20 minutes and just stay connected with all your accounts and understand where things are going and catch surprises and also catch some. Some other things, like identity theft. You know, it's. Things might be happening right under your eyes that. So it's a really, really good practice.

I loved it.

It's something to do after a plan. But I would highly recommend once you do the work to get connected, just commit to staying it.

Yeah.

So you don't repeat this behavior and all of a sudden wake up and go, I don't know where all my money lives.

Yeah. And what I loved about that as a tool is inviting your partner in to do that.Because Boyd and I have gotten so much better about talking about money when we both owned our own businesses. So at first it was like he worked for a big studio and I.

Worked for our school.

So it was like, okay, we're plugging away. We have salaries. And then as that started to shift, he went to a startup company.I started my business, but I did it very slowly because I was really committed to raising the kids, and it made us talk more. And I don't think you have to both be, you know, entrepreneurs or have your own businesses to learn how to talk more. What it has in our family.And he works as a music producer, so he never knows how much he's getting paid because it depends on if the television show places music. So there's a whole big question mark around that. And so I just feel like this idea of making it less precious.

Yeah.

Just working it into your everyday Sunday family meetings if you have that, depending on the age of your children. But bringing that money date to your partnership is so huge.

So. And I. And I love that you're doing that. And it's very, very important because it also builds transparency and it also helps communication.It's one thing to really. One thing to add to that in is. And we touched on the emotional side of money earlier, but we all have a relationship with money.And a lot of our relationship with money is dictated by how we were raised and what we saw and what we didn't see. And I'm just reinforcing that because as you. If you have a partner, you know someone, you live with, your spouse, it doesn't matter.

Right.

Understand that they have a different communication style around money. They have different triggers around money. They have a different relationship with money.

Yes.

They grew up. Everyone's unique. And so how you talk about it.

Yeah.

Is really important. And I think oftentimes we're like, wait, I threw this out and that wasn't you. You received it this way. That wasn't my intention.We need to have more grace and realize, be careful. Don't say it the way you would say it.Try to craft your messaging in a way that it's going to be received the way you intend because you have a better understanding of their money personality. Does that make sense?

Yes.

And I think that's when we begin to build awareness around the other person's needs, around this topic and our. And. And try to improve our communication style. We tend to have a much more productive money date or productive conversation.

Yeah.

Again, it's not what. It's how.

Yes. And setting that up in advance. I want to talk about this. So you do it in an environment that's supportive of that. You do it when you're, um, Both.

Of you are sober.

You do it when both of you are having eaten. I mean, it's like, oh, we're going to share a bottle of wine and talk about money. No, you're not. No, you're not. No, you're not.Maybe go for a walk, you know, talk about money. Like, be outside. But it gets really tricky.

Yeah, for sure.

So what do you feel like now in this aftermath? Now you went back, you got a.

Job, you help women.

You have grown your net worth.

Yeah.

Talk to us about being on the other side of it. Do you feel like a completely new relationship with money?

Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, my career journey was a process. Right. I am so fortunate today to be the National Director of Women and wealth at Northern Trust.That's my day job, right? Yes. I started, I started to rebuild my career though. That was a journey.You know, I started to rebuild my career really being an entrepreneur by need not choice because as I shared, I wasn't going to get a job that was going to build my self worth and help me financially. So I had to go and I had to reinvent. So that has been in a whole long process.I've now been at Northern for six years and it's some of the most rewarding work I have ever done is to see this mission of mine that started out of.I don't know what I'm going to do, but I've got to use my story and I've got to use my expertise and my skill skills around this to help women, to teach them so that they don't make the same mistake, so that they're proactive versus reactive. But what the gift it's also been to me and my whole rebuild financially beyond just the reward of helping others is I don't worry about money.

Yeah.

You know, I was so stressed about it in the beginning of this because I didn't know how I was going to make ends meet every single month. I was always scared to death. That's that that financially we were one step away from devastation again because you know, of this divorce.But the way by following these six steps, I mean everything in the book is connected.Personally, I have the security, you know, of making choices and it's the most liberating thing to feel that you're not just so chained to a paycheck. Yes, my patience important.But I've rebuilt wealth and my wealth is growing and working as hard as I am in my day job, I've allowed my money to work, to grow more security for me. Yeah. So when I need it, it's there. If I need it before. Yeah. I, you know, retire or whatever that. I don't even know if that word is in my vocabulary.Yeah.

I don't think it's mine either. So we're, we're liking that way. But you know what I want to emphasize for people listening, it's not that you did this by becoming a master investor.In fact, they partner with people along the way and, and I want people to hear that because you make this so accessible and so practical and it's really empowering for people because I am not a money person. I mean, I'm not. I know a lot about my money because of the tools in your book. And I also just believe in the message of your book.So I was kind of doing that a little bit before and then your book has really encouraged me. But it's, I think that's. People start thinking, well, I've got to be really great with money or I have to work with money like you did.

You don't. So. So no. And I want to be honest, disclosure, I don't. I mean I don't buy stocks. I don't buy. Yeah.I have a professional advisor that's helping me with that. What I look at myself and what I'm trying to teach people is be your own strategist.Understand how do I create a very efficient financial life for, you know, where all the spokes are working together. It's all the stuff that we're not talking enough about before investing. Yes.You know, it's how do we build a foundation so we're set up to create a machine that's going to work for us and how do we build a team to do it?

Yeah.

You know, it's hiring the right advisors, it's finding those right resources. So this is not meant to be a DIY job.It is meant for us to get in the game, lay the foundation, own this, learn the tools so we can make confident decisions so then we can go to the next step. Like you're.

Yeah.

And I think to your point, I think you mentioned this earlier in this world of digital purchasing and we kind of laughed about it in my post 10pm purchasing. It is so important to have these tools.

Yeah.

Because everything is becoming so fast that you don't know where your money's going. And I think it's only going to get. It's going to be like we check out of the grocery store with our eyeballs.You know, you don't even have to reach for your wallet or it's like some sort of scan of your energy field before you're even at the thing at the register. It's like pages on aisle five. We're going to charge her 50 bucks. Well, we need this.

So.

Okay, last words. What's your hope for the book? What's your hope for like the ripple effect that it has or the way it changes people?

My hope is that, you know, while my. Well, divorce was my catalyst.

Right.

It was my wake up call. My hope Is that all women, whether they're 20, 60, 70, see this book as a woman's empowerment book disguised as a finance book.

Yes.

That it's so much bigger than about money. It is about living and getting towards a life that is truer to who we really are so that we, we are living longer than ever as women.Many of us will live into our 90s, believe it or not. That means chapters after chapter.And we want to, I want to, I hope that women see the power they have to make the most of those chapters through financial security and financial autonomy. Because it's liberating, you know, and it, it allows us to dream big and it allows us to keep going.

Yes.

And I, and also.So that's the one side for the younger generation women to see my story and all of this as a cautionary tale, but as a really good thing to, in terms of the tools to start some really healthy practices when you're young. Yeah. So that you're not rebuilding. Yeah.

Thank you so much, Steph. What fun.

Thank you. This is great. I love the work you're doing, and it touches me. I really appreciate your kind words around my book.I, I, I'm glad that, that you enjoyed it.

Oh, it's great. I can't wait for people to read it. So congratulations.

I went straight from my time with Steph to the kitchen and found my husband, Boyd, and I was all inspired, and I told him about Steph's tools in the book, and I told him how I'd paid for the yoga face.

App, and I didn't know it.

And he admitted that he recently discovered that he'd been paying for a fitness app he bought in 2020. So he'd been paying for that app for nearly five years.

That was actually really validating because Boyd.

Is very detail oriented and I'm not, and it can even happen to him. So we agreed we need to get more organized with our money and know our numbers better.Even though we communicate about money often, I still think we could do a better job of revisiting our vision, reviewing our plan, and, as Steph says, staying the course with the decisions we're making. More conversations. We all could have more conversations with ourselves and with our loved ones about money.Steph's book, Fly, is definitely a conversation starter, and it gives you succinct, clear definitions and then the distinct steps you can take to approach what seems like a massive task of building your wealth. She breaks it down in such an accessible and practical way. Everyone gets called up in life, all sorts of circumstances unfold.Sometimes we can see them looming. We sense the change coming, and other times what happens in our lives is very unexpected.Steph had a really painful, devastating wake up call when it comes to her financial independence. But not all calls in life are dramatic or traumatizing.Sometimes the wake up call can be a book like Fly or listening to a podcast like this one, but you have to heed those quiet calls when you get them. If you're still listening and you feel like I do that, you could be more organized and intentional with your money.Order a copy of Steph's book Fly and use the tools. Her methods are proven and I can tell you because I'm doing it now, it feels so good to pay attention to your money.Steph, I'm so grateful for this time with you. You've already helped thousands of women and that means you've really helped tens of thousands of people.Because when women are empowered, they use that power to take better care of their people. I know this book is going to reach thousands and thousands more.You've taken your heartbreak and you've turned it into an amazing mission to help others. I'm inspired by your courage, your resourcefulness, your motherhood, your ambition and your energy to change people's lives.Thank you for meeting me and our listeners here and offering us exactly what we need to build the lives we love. You can find out more about Steph in the show notes and order your copy of Fly wherever books are sold. Okay y', all, that's it for now.I will meet you here again soon. Thanks to each of you for being.

Here and for listening. I'm so grateful we get to share.

Life in this way.

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