12: Pastor Drew Sams: Balancing Tradition and Innovation in Faith

North node.

This is what faith is. It's bringing your doubts

before God, bringing your emotions before God.

It's having faith that God is big enough to

handle me shaking my fist at God. And what's

beautiful at the end of Psalm 13 is, but I will

trust in your unfailing love. I will sing of your

salvation, for you have been good to me. So it's

like even though I don't feel it now, I'm going

to remember that you've been faithful before. So

I'm still going to sing, but it's probably going

to be through tears. And then it makes me think,

now that I have two boys, I'd much rather them

come to me angry, sad, disappointed, hurt,

frustrated, than to discover they've been

harboring that on their own, never bringing it to

me.

Yeah. Hi, I'm Paige Nolan. Welcome to. I'll meet

you there. A place where heart centered

conversations are everything. Living what matters

is the truest thing, and sharing the journey is

the best. Hi everyone and welcome back. My guest

today is a senior pastor at a prominent local

church, Belair Presbyterian Church here in Los

Angeles. His name is Drew Sams. I wanted to meet

Drew here because I'm interested in how he lives

his life both professionally and personally, so

devoted to his faith. As many of y'all know, I'm

interested in faith as a topic and it's not just

because faith is important to me personally, it

definitely is. But I've also come to understand

how faith is important for everybody, each of us,

for all of us. Faith is essential to the human

experience and we're living through a time when

how we organize and structure our faith based

lives is changing. Churches are not as central as

they once were. For example, we don't have any

sort of built in support around faith based

practices like used to have in our culture. How

we relate to religion and talk about faith is an

area that seems to be evolving and as a

collective, it's murky. Pastor Drew is someone I

feel is leading well through what I would

consider to be the tricky territory of religion

in these times. He also used to be my neighbor

and for a hot minute we overlapped at the church

because I was teaching the Mommy and Me classes

when Drew began his tenure as a pastor. I should

tell you we recorded this conversation during the

World Series between the Dodgers and the Yankees,

which is over now. And so I start by referencing

the Dodgers because Drew is a third generation

native Angeleno and the Dodgers did go on to win.

So I'm sure that he's happy about that. Drew has

been a pastor at Bel air Church for 11 years now.

He's a graduate of the University of Southern

California and Fuller Theological Seminary. He's

also a husband to his wife Erica and a father to

their two sons and a big time adventurer in the

natural world, which you will hear him talk

about. In this conversation, Drew shares the

early messages of his life. How he came to

Christianity, which may surprise you, and how

curiosity has been a guiding principle to deepen

his faith and inform his leadership. Drew gives

his take on the relationship between science and

faith and he pulls some beautiful references from

the Bible to illustrate how he sees the two as

complementary. We talk about what the church

really is, how he stays connected to his own

faith when his role there is to help others

cultivate faith. And towards the end, Drew has a

wonderful insight around doubt and certainty and

the one word in the Bible that outnumbers both

the words trust and belief. I think y'all are

going to appreciate this episode about faith. It

may even get you thinking about what you believe.

Enjoy my conversation with Pastor Drew Sams. So I

feel like I have to start actually with how you

feel about the Doctors being in the World Series

because you're a total LA guy and so is that

meaningful to you? We're recording this in the

middle of Dodger season.

I mean super meaningful. So I'm a third

generation Angelina. My grandpa graduated with

Jackie Robinson.

Nice.

From John Muir high school in 1939. And so as a

kid I'd hear stories and I distinctly remember

where I was when Kirk Gibson hit his game one

walk off home run in 1988. I was at my

grandparents house. I remember like the avocado

green carpet. Still to this day, the shag carpet.

And the crazy thing is I got invited and was at

game one when Freddie Freeman hit his walk off

grand slam.

Good for you.

I know, it was like, it was as like a die hard

Dodger fan. It was so meaningful. And I went with

a guy, he's part of our church and his dad has

had season tickets since 1968. So hearing his

stories about growing up, it just, it's amazing.

And it's such a beautiful city, misunderstood

city, but I love it.

I have to admit that one of my experiences of

being in LA is so different from being raised in

New Orleans. And so in New Orleans it's a smaller

city, it's very unified, it's easily unified

because people don't move. It's not as transient

as LA is. And so when the Saints are doing well,

the whole city is dressed in black and gold. So

it's been so nice for me in Los Angeles to feel

this unity because the Dodgers being in the World

Series and doing as they have been doing, and I

go to the coffee shop almost every morning, I get

the same cup of tea. Everyone's got their LA

Dodgers baseball hats on and everybody behind the

counter, all the baristas are talking about it.

So it's been so fun, it's so amazing.

But we are fair weather fans, so those hats will

be gone by November.

There you go.

And it's just how it is, you know, but it is fun

when those moments happen. It's so fun.

So tell me a little bit more about your childhood

and I know your love for la, because I just know

you and I've known you and I've seen you on your

skateboard and I know how you feel about surfing.

But I'm interested also in the early messages

about faith and kind of paint the picture for us

of your childhood in la.

Well, it's a bit surreal. So I'm like outside of

myself looking back, but also trying to imagine,

you know, all your listeners listening in and

catching this. And for those who don't know me,

who meet me as a pastor in la, I imagine

instantly they think, oh, he's probably this,

probably that, probably this, probably that,

which is natural. Like we try to make sense of

the world around us and we take shortcuts

sometimes of what we know. And so it just, it's

always interesting for me to look back on my life

and be like, how on earth did I get to where I am

today? You never would have known it. Growing up

in la in the 80s, it was kind of a middle class

growing up, tougher part of Pasadena. My mom sold

cheesecakes that she made to restaurants and

bars. My dad worked three jobs, he worked for a

golf course, he laid carpets on the weekend, he

stocked the shelves at Alpha Beta grocery store,

you know, so it was like a hard working family.

And like in the early years I really don't have

much memory of church, maybe like a Christmas Eve

service here or there. But what I do remember is

my parents splitting up and divorcing when I was

six. Didn't know till many years later that my

dad had had multiple affairs and left my mom and

my mom remarried. Looking back, I would say he's

an amazing guy, but I totally couldn't appreciate

how amazing he was. When I was seven and eight

years old, he was very different than what my

biological dad was. My Biological dad was kind of

like Chevy chase from every 70s movie, you know,

like Caddyshack. Like, that's my dad.

Yeah.

And my stepdad Malcolm, who's so amazing. But I

couldn't appreciate at the time because he was

kind of straight laced and, you know, very

responsible and not the life of the party, but

would go to church and started taking us to

church. And so my first experience was I don't

like this because it kind of represents a part of

my life that I didn't anticipate. My parents

split it up. Yes. And this, this feels foreign to

me. And yet there was times where I'd have fun.

You know, it's like youth group stuff and growing

up and going around it, having fun. And I grew

up, you know, kind of going off and on. But then

I got really involved in sports.

Yeah. And as a high schooler.

As a high schooler, I played very competitive

soccer. I was a goalkeeper, traveled all over

California. Our home field was in Irvine, even

though we lived in at that time in Glendale. And

so every weekend was tournament. So I just

stopped going to church and just was not part of

my radar at all. And I guess the best way I could

describe it was by default, I'm not Hindu, I'm

not Muslim, I'm not atheist, I'm not. Not Jewish.

I guess I'm a Christian.

Right.

You know, that, that, that kind of like

summarized the whole thing. And then I guess, you

know, faith at the time was like, be a good

person.

Sure.

You know, be a good person. And that, that was

the fullness of what that era was for me. And

then I graduated high school and I went to usc

and I did not think it for a moment about church,

about God, about faith.

Yeah.

It just was not a personal thing for me at all.

And maybe we'll come back to that story, but kind

of the origin story is, you know, normal

childhood and had a lot of fun. My mom was and is

so amazing. I mean, she pretty much raised me.

Her love for the outdoors, her spontaneity, you

know, like a core teaching that I feel really

shaped me was every person you meet is a person

of value and you're going to learn something from

them. Don't write them off. And you have

something to learn from everyone. And so it kind

of made me like a curious, inquisitive person

from a young age.

And maybe even a Christian.

And maybe even a Christian. Right? Yeah. So she

modeled that in many ways, perhaps not even

knowing it. God, I would say it now, like God

used that Season and my mom and my stepdad in

such profound ways to teach me love and patience

and sacrifice and.

And isn't it interesting that you've landed

yourself in a pretty prominent leadership role

and yet you had this early foundation of

openness. You know, it's kind of nice that you

weren't pigeonholed into something or like, bred

and born to be a pastor. It's interesting to me,

you know, that that was kind of your early

messages were just about a relationship with.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

Exactly. For sure. Like, that was it. That summed

it up. Love your neighbor as yourself. And even

now, like, in the role. So I'm the senior pastor

at Bel Air Church. It's this historic church in

la, but it's in la and I come across so many

people from so many different backgrounds and

even within the Christian umbrella, which means a

million things to a million people. Right. We

have people who attend who are like, I don't even

know if I believe in God.

Yeah.

But I'm curious and I'm like, I love that. Like,

this is so great. That. And you know, people who

are Jewish who are, you know, interested, because

I also teach a lot from the Hebrew scriptures,

also known as the Old Testament. And it's la. So

there's just this beautiful multicultural,

multiethnic across the socioeconomic spectrum,

across the political spectrum, which can be

really difficult at times.

I'm glad you're doing that. We need that.

Totally. But it's so. It's almost like there is

no reason why this group of people should be in

community with one another.

Yeah.

Like, what's going on here? And ultimately, at

the end of the day, it's a group of people who

are like, I'm curious about what it means to have

a relationship with God through Jesus, and I want

to follow Jesus. And, you know, it's more like a

lived out faith rather than this dogmatic, like,

you're in, we're, you know, or we're in, you're

out kind of thing. So, like, there's this

concept, I don't know if you've heard of this, a

centered set versus a bounded set. No.

Will you tell me more about that?

Yeah. So a centered set is a community of people

who really revolve around the center of

something, whatever that is. So you spoke about

the Saints, right? Yeah, New Orleans Saints and

this football team that becomes the center of the

community, especially when they're doing well.

You talked about the Dodgers, like, for a season,

like, all these people, you know, become like,

oh, my Gosh. Like, yeah, I love the Dodgers, too.

And, you know, they're wearing the hat, so that's

a. What you might call a centered set. A bounded

set is, let's say like a private club or like a

country club where you're either a member or

you're not.

Yeah.

You're either in or you're out. Like, there's

requirements to get in and anyone else is a

guest. And it's like there's a threshold that has

to be crossed. And it's more than just, you know,

like, there's certain things that keep you in and

out. Sometimes, sadly, communities of faith

forget that they're supposed to be a centered set

and become bounded sets. And that could look.

Whatever it looks like, it could be. We only

listen to traditional worship. Yeah. You know, or

we're straight laced. You have a tattoo like,

you're not welcome here. Or like, oh, we're these

kind of, you know, this. It's our community. You

vote that way. Oh, no, you're not welcome. Then

it becomes something it shouldn't be, which is a

bounded set.

Yeah.

And I'm constantly trying to tear down any walls

that people accidentally build or unknowingly

build that create a bounded set when it should be

a centered set.

I love that example. I relate to it because when

I was teaching preschool, I worked at Bel Air

Press just a couple years before you arrived. And

I remember taking that job. The director at the

time and I had known each other socially. I had

popped in and out as a substitute teacher. One of

my best friends was a full time teacher. So I got

to know her in very informal terms. So I felt

close enough with her when we talked about

onboarding me as a full time teacher, which I

never had aspirations to become a preschool

teacher. It just worked out for the family. And I

said to her, I'm not sure if I'm Christian

enough. Like, I don't know if I'm like meeting

all the criteria. If I'm checking the right

boxes, like, what is my relationship with the

Bible? And I grew up Episcopalian, but I went to

A K through 12 Episcopal School. I've always had

a very positive relationship with religion. I

consider myself following the teachings of Jesus

Christ. But it's like, have I accepted Jesus

Christ as my one loving savior? You know, I don't

know where I fall on all that. Like, other

religions won't have access to heaven or

salvation. My brain can't understand that if God

is love, why someone would arrive. If there is an

afterlife to a judgmental God. So I could never

make sense of that, like, that this aspect of

Christianity meant that you have to be superior

or there's a righteousness to it. So I remember

her saying, the nature of Christianity is not to

be Christian enough. It's, are you comfortable

with these teachings, you know, which is

reflective of the organization? Are you

comfortable working with children around Jesus

being a leader and the message of Christ, which

is love and compassion? And I was like, oh, yeah,

that's my favorite part. I love teaching the

teachings that God is love is what a great

definition and what a wonderful thing to teach

young people. But it really is that idea for me,

as I was employed there and working with my own

faith and having, you know, my young family and

thinking about all these ideas, because I was now

our mother, you know, having to teach ideas to my

own children. Do we put someone's Christianity

above their humanity? And that's kind of to your

point of, like, what are we centered on? I want

to be centered on the fact that we're all human

together. And that. That definition, that's the

biggest definition. And then our various ways of

thinking about Christianity or maybe other ways

to express our spirituality or our faith can all

fit there. It's big enough. But I love that

you're engaged with that idea. It's important

right now.

Totally. Yeah. And what's so beautiful about that

and that response that was given to you, if

you're like a hardcore student in the Bible, you

would go to all these places and say, well,

exactly. Like, look at the Apostle Paul, right?

Catholics will call him St. Paul. Right? Like,

amazing hero of the faith who did all these

amazing things. Right. Well, what did he say? The

Book of Romans has him. He wrote that letter to

the church in Rome, and he basically says, oh,

the things I want to do, I still don't do. Yeah,

the things I don't want to do, I still do. Oh,

this. This wretch that I am, like, who will

rescue me. How amazing that he models to us, this

humility. He does not come across as, like, I

have it all together. He does not come across as,

you've got to be perfect. You got to be Christian

enough.

Yes.

What does that mean? Right. He even said about

himself, I'm the chief of all sinners. And I know

sin is like a big. That's a. That's got a lot of

baggage for a lot of people, but essentially he's

saying, like, I am not perfect, and it's in my

weakness and in my, you know, shortcomings that

God's love can be poured in me and through me.

When you study the teachings of Jesus, it is so

different, sadly than such the misguided teaching

of some of Christians today or what the

perception is of what a Christian should be like.

Talk about a gap between the actual historical

Jesus and how he wrongly gets misinterpreted or

misrepresented today.

Yeah, well, that was one of the blessings of my

experience as a teacher is because once I got in

the classroom and the experience with children,

the wonder and the open mindedness and our

natural inclination to be collaborative, to be

creative, to work together, to accept each

other's differences, which are all tenets of

Christianity and quite frankly a lot of the world

religions, tolerance and compassion and mercy.

And so once I was in the role, it was like that

question became less and less important to me.

Less and less of a barrier. Yeah. Because then

you're to your point that you said earlier you're

living your faith.

Yes. Yeah. And did you find in your experience

not only of teaching but also being a parent,

that you learned about maybe the character of God

or your faith was enhanced, it was deepened

through the lens of these kids, whether they're

your biological children or these kids you've

been entrusted by other guardians and parents,

you know, to teach?

Yeah, I think the word is love. It feels like one

of the ideas that we get from a young age and at

least the Christianity that was introduced to me

is that you have to prove or you have to be that

word enough or you have to change some way that

you are so that God accepts you. And I think when

you're really living your faith, it's the exact

opposite. That the thing that makes it possible

for a person to change is love. And I think

children are so generous with their love. They're

so pure. Yeah, so pure.

Well, it's, it's a matter of order. Right. So

like I often say in my context that human made

religion is spelled D O do. Yes, you gotta do

this, you gotta do this, you gotta do this, you

gotta do this, you gotta do this, you gotta do

this. And then hopefully one day you make it in,

then you're loved, you know, and we do the right

thing and we're in and you don't do the right

thing and you're out. That gets back to the

bounded set. But I've said in contrast, faith in

God is spelled D O N E. It's done. There's

nothing for you to do. You just simply respond to

what's already been done. God from a Christian

point of view, you know, spoke the cosmos into

existence. I also love science, so I actually

don't see science in the Bible contradicting one

another, but actually complementing one another.

Can I do like a little rabbit trail for a second

on that piece? Because I think this is something

I've wrestled with stutters. In the Hebrew

scriptures of the Old Testament, it talks about

the creation of all things. And translated from

the Hebrew into the English, there's the first

day and the second day and the third day and the

fourth day and the fifth day and the sixth day,

and then God rests on the seventh day. And so if

you translate day as a 24 hour period, that seems

like, wow, you just covered a lot of ground in

six days. What, you know, then what do we do with

carbon dating? What do we do with, you know, the

fossil record? What do we do with all those

things? And so some people then see science in

contrast to faith. You're either a person of

science or you're a person of faith. And there's

this dichotomy that I believe is a false

dichotomy because what many people don't realize

is that the word that we translate in a day can

either mean a 24 hour period or it can mean a

length of time. And that length of time can be

eons.

Yeah.

And what's really interesting is the order in

which the creation account occurs. If it's eons

of time, it actually follows the carbon dating

record that we have and it follows the fossil

record that we have. And actually you can fit the

creation account within the guest. What is it,

4.3 billion years of carbon dating that we think

since, like I like to say, I completely believe

in the Big Bang theory.

Yeah.

That something as a catalyst began the expansion

of the universe and it's been expanding ever

since. As a Christian, I just happen to know what

it sounded like. Let there be light.

Yeah.

And so it's interesting in the Psalms, it also

talks about the universe is unfolding like a

tent. And so even like that poetry that's used,

you know, how mysterious that even before they

understood the expansion of the universe, there

was somehow this wisdom, this mystery of, you

know, all things. So anyway, that this idea of

this expansive nature and being able to have

science and faith coming together has been deeply

encouraging to me. But there's like a pursuit

that is willing to go deeper than just the

headlines because again, I'll just go back to it.

Like in society now, it's like you're either on

this side or you're on this side. Well, hold on.

And I'm just a very inquisitive by nature person.

I don't know if you know this. The cells in your

body and the cells in my body, there's trillions

of them. There's actually more non human cells

than there are human cells in your body.

I did not know that.

Yeah. So you can Google this. You can look it up.

I always say fact check, fact check, fact check.

But the amount of bacteria.

Yeah.

And fungal cells that you have in your body

outnumbers human cells.

Interesting.

The science is discovering the vast amount of

life that is non human in you and me through the

discovery of the gut biome.

Yeah.

That is from the earth. And what's really

interesting is now a lot of scientists are saying

it's more like we're a rainforest, we're more

like an ecosystem. And, you know, gut health

really affects mental health and emotional health

and all these things. Right. Well, isn't it

interesting that in the Hebrew language, in

Genesis 2, it describes that God. Very poetic.

Right. God reaches into the ground and pulls out

of the ground from the earth creature.

Yes.

Is literally how it's described. And so, yeah,

there's just like all this. So I don't know, I

just. It's the curiosity in me that helps me

discover these things. And that's been fun in a

community that I never really understood as a kid.

Yeah.

And. And kids ask the best questions and that's

what's so beautiful, you know? And I feel like we

as adults can learn so much from our kids and the

kids that we're around and how they ask.

And then you learn about yourself because then

you're in the position to answer. I always think

that's one of the really humbling things about

being a parent or being a teacher. It's like you

receive the question, you have to think, and then

words are coming out of your mouth to answer and

you're like, wow, okay. That's what I'm saying.

That's what I believe. And it's. It's an

invitation to clarify and understand what you've

been believing because that certainly has

indicated how you've been acting, you know, so it

really is an invitation to be the role model. And

I think that's one of the most powerful things we

have as a parent and as an adult is to model the

behavior that we wish for these younger people to.

Yeah.

To be.

What you just said reminded me of. There was a

stat I read recently that 97% of kids age 5

believe they're highly creative.

Yeah.

And 97% of adults believe they're not creative.

Yeah.

What happened? To go from such a pendulum swing,

and it's almost like as we grow up, we're almost

told incorrectly to not ask those questions or.

No, no, no, no. Like, no, no, no. We've already

figured that out. And that's where I feel like

some of the modeling that you were talking about

can be coming back to a childlike wonder of the

world around us. A curiosity, a graciousness.

It's really beautiful.

When you were talking about reconciling science

and religion, I have a curiosity about your line

of work. I wonder, is part of your job to expand

our understanding of scripture and to help people

reframe and, you know, elevate their level of

consciousness around it? Because it seems to me

that so much of the harm of organized religion,

and specifically Christianity, has come from

literal definitions or misinterpretations of this

historical text. And the way that you're. Yeah,

the way you're thinking about it, did you

anticipate that that would be part of your job?

Did you know that when you were going into this

role?

I would say I didn't know it to the extent of

how. Almost every single conversation I have has

to do with that. Name a topic off the top of your

head that you feel is really expansive and robust

out in the world. It has nothing to do with

scripture, has nothing to do with faith, but just

any topic that you feel like is a really big

topic.

I think the one that we've named earlier is just

who gets to call themselves a Christian. You

know, who are you? There's a righteousness around

organized religion. If somebody comes to you

who's a part of the church community and is

either very righteous, like that other member

isn't Christian enough, or that other member is

living a lifestyle that I don't agree with. What

can you say to the rigidity of that thinking or

like the pain that that person's in because they

feel love? Another. Another person?

Well, you keyed on what the last thing you said.

The pain of that person, often it is. Comes from

a place of hurt, comes from a place of

protectiveness. And so often my approach is the

approach of curiosity and asking questions. Help

me understand. So are you saying that a preacher

has to wear a tie, has to have a shaved face for

them to be worthy to preach God's word?

Absolutely. How come, Drew. How come you don't

shave? How come you don't wear a tie? You know,

the people have come to me over the years. I'll

say. So are you saying that a beard is more

powerful than the love of God? Well, I'm not

saying that. Well, but it sounds like you're

saying if I have a beard, it somehow prevents

God's word to be preached. I try to, like, just

hold a mirror up.

Yeah.

And then they're like, well, okay, I see what

you're saying there. You know, and I often find

that people's preferences become the center.

Yeah.

You know how we talked about centered set and

bounded set, you know, so it's like just trying

to get to what's the center of your faith, or

another way to say it is, what's the foundation

of your faith? And some. Some people, they've

settled for such a counterfeit or shadow or

reduced version of a loving God, and it's down to

whatever it is. And it can be a million things.

Right. And I have to be very careful not to write

that person off.

Yes.

And not to do the thing that I'm critiquing them

of doing, but to come alongside them as people

have come alongside me. Right. And a little bit

of grace and truth kind of gently kind of guide

them, you know, in another way. But it is true

that so often people's agenda or their

perspective is the center, and therefore they use

verses in scripture completely out of context,

out of context of the chapter that it's in, out

of the cultural context that it was in, in

whatever part in world history that is, and

completely misusing it for their purpose. So

going back to your original question, it is fun

to help people expand their view of what is going

on, even to understand how many different genres

of writing there are in Scripture. All of it is

not an eyewitness account. Some of it is poetry.

Yeah.

Some of it is what's called apocalyptic writing,

which. That's a big word, but it uses signs and

symbols, metaphors, vivid imagery to communicate

truth.

Yeah.

So the metaphor I often give is, you know, what

would happen if you and I went back in time to,

like, the 1800s, and we tried to describe what it

was like to watch planes take off and land at

lax. And we had to use language that they

understood. Likely we wouldn't be able to do it.

Yeah.

So let's say we said, okay, well, let's take

somebody from the 1800s with us back to modern

day. Right. We'll take them to lax. We'll sit it

in and out. Right.

I know exactly where it is.

Plants. Right. You know, well, have them Witness

it. They're going to be shocked, overwhelmed,

can't understand what they're seeing. And then

they go back and, I mean, how would they describe

it? They might say there was these metal birds.

Yeah.

That came out of the sky out of nowhere. And they

were huge, bigger than any castle I've seen. And

they landed, and this thing came out of the side

of them and sucked people into it. I mean, it

would be horrifying. Right. And so when you read

certain books of the Bible, you're like, what on

earth is this? Like, this does not make sense.

And some of it is trying to use words and images

and colors and numbers and metaphors to describe

something that when you understand the historical

context, it's like, oh, it's just describing this.

Yes.

Oh, okay. That makes sense. You know?

Is that what happened?

Oh, it's a metaphor.

Exactly. Is that what happened when you went to

study? I'm assuming that you had some sort of

interaction that got you interested in going to

study theology.

So the short story of that was in college, I just

met these people who call themselves Christian,

who seemed normal, who were fun, who partied, but

who also went out and served homeless on skid

row. And they made mistakes, but then they asked

for forgiveness. What? Like, people don't. It was

just like this weird, you know, like, this

doesn't make sense. And it seemed like as college

kids, their faith mattered to them, and. And they

gathered together and studied the Bible, but they

weren't weird, you know? And I started hanging

out with that group, and then I started

volunteering, working with high school kids. And

then people were like, you should. You should,

like, do this for a living. I'm like, no, I'm in

business school in usc. No, you know, like, I've

got my own plans. And then I worked for a summer

up at a camp as a camp counselor. And the people

there were like, you should seriously think about

becoming a pastor. I'm like, no way. You know?

And I ended up graduating USC not knowing what I

was going to do. And I ended up hearing that

there was this school in Pasadena, Florida

Theological Seminary, that also had a school of

psychology. Well, I didn't mention that. I

switched majors from business to psychology. Got

a business minor, psychology major. And then I

had in my mind, maybe I'll go into, like,

Christian counseling or something. Like, you

know, I've seen a lot of trauma. I've seen a lot

of heartache. Like, I'm drawn towards kids in

crisis, you know, addiction, you know, suicidal

tendencies. Like, maybe I'll Go that direction.

Ended up applying to the School of psychology.

Got in, went to orientation. The end of

orientation, everybody in my group who I never

met before was like, have you ever thought about

becoming a pastor? I'm like, who are you people?

Like, why do people keep saying this?

You can't ignore it.

I can't ignore it. And then I ended up switching

to the school theology, Moved at home with my

parents because I'm out of college. I'm waiting

tables at a restaurant in Pasadena and, you know,

just wondering, like, what am I going to do? You

know, still volunteering. And I'm going to say a

story to you. And I know this sounds so crazy,

and I wouldn't believe me if I was listening, but

as real as this conversation is this experience.

And I've never had anything happen like this

before. So this is like, I love stuff like this.

Yeah, it's still, like, hard to amend. So, you

know, my friends were business school majors.

They're driving nice cars or traveling to New

York. Like, they're buying apartments and homes.

And I'm back home with my parents waiting tables.

USC grad, volunteering, going to seminary. Like,

what just happened with my life? And so now I'm

like, am I going the right way?

Yeah.

And I just remember at that point, praying, God,

am I going the right way? Is this the right way?

And for some reason, like, that was the prayer.

Am I going the right way? And I ended up leaving

class one day and I'm just kind of in my head and

like, gosh, am I going the right way in life? I

don't know. And I'm walking down the sidewalk and

I go to a local coffee shop. It happens to be a

Starbucks in Pasadena, and it's on Colorado

Boulevard near the Paseo. Some people might know

this area. And it's kind of a unique coffee shop

in the sense that there's no store next to it.

It's like a huge concrete wall. One direction

that's part of a parking structure and a huge

concrete wall. The. That's the lower floor of

what's like an upper level kind of outdoor mall.

There's only one door and there's nothing else.

Right. And so I'm going on the sidewalk. Am I

going the right way? Am I going the right way?

And then I go into the door. And you. Have you

ever had those moments where you're going in and

somebody's going out? You kind of like, do the

thing at the same time. So I had that experience,

but I'm so in my Head. I'm not looking up. I'm

not making eye contact. I'm just trying to get

around them, you know? And this person said to

me, oh, you're great. You're going the right way.

And I get past them, and I stop, and I'm like, no

one ever says it that way.

Yeah.

And I was just thinking, am I going the right

way? And then I stepped back out of the sidewalk,

and no one was there.

Oh, wow.

So I'm like. I'm just standing on the sidewalk,

and I'm like, what was that? God?

Yeah.

And this is where, you know, faith. The Bible

says faith is believing in things unseen. And,

you know, I just. I remember that moment, and I

just said, okay, God, I'm just going to have

faith that somehow you wanted me to know I'm

going the right way. And it could have just been

a random. It just happened to be. Who knows?

Right?

That's what faith is all about.

Who knows? It could. I don't know. Big mystery.

That's one of the many questions I have for God.

Like, who was that? What was that? Right. And I

look back on that moment, and what's so crazy is

I stayed in seminary. He was probably. A month

later, the head of the high school ministry at

Bel Air said, hey, I'm moving to San Diego. I'm

taking a position down there, and there's going

to be a search for the permanent position. I'd

like to recommend you to the hiring committee as

the interim leader for, like, a year. Would you

be willing to do it? And I'm like, that'd be

amazing. Did that for a year. Fell in love with

it. The year wrapped up. I wasn't eligible for

the permanent position. They really wanted to

have the interim anyway. Ended up working for

another church, Calvary community church, for 10

years as the high school pastor and then student

ministries pastor and then a teaching pastor. And

then I had a former high school kid from the

youth group at Bel Air when I was the interim,

reach out to me. And he's like, hey, I'd love to

have breakfast with you. Great. Let's get

together. We got together, and he says, hey, I'm

on the search committee for the next senior

pastor. What do you think? And I said, jordan,

that's amazing. I mean, you're probably the

youngest person on the committee. And he's like,

no, no, no. I'm asking you, like, what do you

think? And I'm like, oh, well, just pray about

it. Like, you know, you'll. You'll find the Right

person. And he kept on saying like, no, no, what

do you think? And I'm like, I think it's great

they asked you to be part of it. And he said, no,

I'm asking, what do you think about applying for

the position? It was totally going over my head

and I'm like, I'm not qualified for that. Like,

I've never been a senior pastor. He's like,

exactly. That's why you're perfect for it.

Yeah.

Long story short, I was the second choice. The

first choice ended up choosing somewhere else.

They settled for me and I've been there for 11

years, so who would have thought? Yeah, you know,

it wasn't definitely going back to your point.

Like it was not programmed into the script. It

wasn't like, here's my plan, you know.

Yes, well, what.

It's a bit surprising, but it's been beautiful in

that way.

And what I'm loving about your story is that so

much of what we have needed in the church these

days is flexibility. What we've needed is someone

to be more nimble and open minded and visionary.

Like how to captivate people's attention, how to

turn churches into community centers rather than

just these places of rigidity where their trauma

comes forward and then it becomes. The church is

this awful place when historically the church has

been to that point of centering. It's been a very

centering presence. And in my experience of

working with human beings, we're never going to

not seek purpose and meaning and understanding.

And often that comes through spirituality,

whether that's religion, whether that's

spirituality through the body and practices. But

I just don't see that conversation is going away

now. The church is changing and that needs some

creativity there. So it's. What's sticking with

me about your story is that it's kind of nice

that you've had this freedom of thought because

you haven't been raised in this little box. You

didn't expect of yourself to have this position,

to have this kind of influence. So you're

arriving to this place with a little, maybe a

little bit more liberated than somebody else

would be if they were very attached to the old

ways of being. Because all the church really

needs is a new way of being. That's the number

one thing that the church needs.

Well, I'll give you an example and it kind of

goes back to your question about calling and

understanding of calling. And I'll go answer that

question through an experience in the pandemic.

So 2020 hit, you know, in LA, had a big shutdown

and some church leaders and, and maybe some of

your listeners saw this in the news, you know,

like they went full on legal route, like we are

the church, we are essential. Like we're not

going to stop meeting. And because I understand a

sense of call as an invitation to follow Jesus

rather than the call is meet in a building every

Sunday between 11am and 12:15pm when some pastors

were saying like, no, the church has to meet the

church. And I, and then I was like, doesn't,

shouldn't we as followers of Jesus care for our

neighbors and wouldn't it be wise for us? And

again, we didn't know what we didn't know. It's

easy to look back on like March 2020, knowing

what we know today. And I'm sure there's all your

listeners have a variety of perspectives which I

deeply respect. And at the time I'm thinking I am

a leader of a community of people that gathers

together on Sundays. There is this unprecedented

at the time, you know, pandemic coming through,

highly contagious, not knowing what's going on.

And I actually helped make the decision to close

our doors a week before Los Angeles mandated it.

And I said, we need to help people and use this

as an opportunity to remind them this is all

about their relationship with God, not about

getting together for a week on Sunday. So how can

we encourage people, how can we come alongside

people without needing to gather together in

person? And we pivoted because the rigidity of it

has to look this way just doesn't exist because

it's like, Jesus, what are you doing? And so we

actually grew in that time and we now have a

reach that we never had before. And I say every

single week, church is not a building, it's not

an hour and Sunday, it's a community of people

defined by the reality of who Jesus is. And if

you're curious, we want to welcome you here, you

know, if you don't know who Jesus is, we want him

to be experienced here. But it is not a building.

It's not an hour on Sunday, it's not a list of

do's and don'ts. And that call is dynamic. And so

it's like any relationship, there's chapters in

that relationship, like with your kids, with your

spouse, you know, with your parents, with your

extended family. It's, can you imagine how boring

it would be if it was like clockwork, the same,

right? You know, and I just think of that as like

our relationship with God. There's ebbs and flows

and there's seasons of. It feels like winter.

There's no leaves on the tree. There's no fruit.

Like this feels barren. And that's okay.

Yeah.

You know, that doesn't mean something's wrong.

You haven't done something wrong. Right. So a lot

of it is helping people reimagine life.

That's right.

Through that lens, which is a lot of fun.

And how now, at this stage in your faith journey,

your professional journey, your human journey,

how do you keep your own faith? You know, you're

in charge of cultivating faith for others. What

connects you most deeply to your own?

I think I read, speaking of the pandemic, I

rediscovered this. And like I mentioned in the

very beginning, my mom was a total adventurer,

loved the outdoors. Some of my earliest memories

are going on hikes and going up in the mountains

in the Angeles National Forest. And I love to

surf, and I love to be out in the mountains. And

I love. I love it, love it, love it, love it. And

as I took on the role of senior pastor, I wrongly

came to the conclusion, I don't have time for

that anymore. And what's interesting about our

modern world is there's apps that track your

activities, steps, and there's this thing called

Strava that runners and cycles have. Right. So I

would post on that, and this is, like, how messed

up my mind got. I felt like if people saw my

Strava post, even if it was around the morning,

then they would think, oh, he's not taking his

job seriously. Like, he has time for, like, how

weird is that? I came to that conclusion. Right.

Or I could have just not tracked it. Right. So I

just kind of stopped going outside and stopped

doing that. And I found that was the worst thing

for me.

Yeah.

Because it became about the doing.

Yeah.

And the leading and the meeting and the

counseling and the decision making. And it was

like 100% of my time went to, what am I doing for

God and for people? Rather than cultivating that

relationship.

Yeah.

And it took the pandemic and the shutdown and me

coping by, like, I need to get outside, and I

need to go on walks, and I need to get out in

creation, and I'm going to invite other people in