10: Unveiling Your True Self: Enneagram and Human Design with Liz Newcomer

Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom. And so that's the first step is just realizing that there is a space. And if you can catch yourself and you can see that you're wanting to reach for it and you pause and then you get to choose. Do I want to wait for him to ask for help or do I want to just go for it? We can look at that for each type, but that is what the growth journey is about.

I love that. It's so true and it's so universal. Everybody has the opportunity to pause.

Yes. And I think that's why I love the Enneagram so much, is because it shows you who you think you are.

Yes.

But also who you have the capacity to be, which is greater than you believe yourself to be.

Hi, I'm Paige Nolan. Welcome to I'll Meet yout There, a place where heart centered conversations are everything. Living what matters is the truest thing, and sharing the journey is the best. Hi everyone and welcome back. I'm here today with episode number 10, which means I'm still very new to the podcasting world, but I'm going to make a claim and I think you're going to agree with me. Every guest I've had to this podcast has shared choice points and moments of courage that he or she has had to live through in order to align with what matters most. And I've noticed there's a skill in each one of these people and it's a skill that seems to precede the turning points. This skill is dynamic and it's subtle, mostly because it's internal and it touches every single aspect of life. The skill is self awareness. My claim is that I think it could be the most important skill for us to improve. It impacts all of our relationships. It helps us to understand how others are thinking and feeling so we can get along. It leads us to make better decisions, be more open, be more loving, and of course, direct our lives in a way that feels true to us. My guest today is dedicated to the work of self awareness. Her name is Liz Newcomer and she's an actor turned Enneagram coach and human design practitioner who specializes in helping people create their most fulfilling lives by being who they really are. Liz and I met 12 years ago, almost to the date, in North Carolina, where I attended a week long workshop to study the Enneagram, a tool Liz was already using in her life and work. I walked into the meeting room late which is not a total surprise. Everyone was already seated in chairs that formed a circle. And in my memory, it was about 40 or 50 people, and it was overwhelming. We were going around introducing ourselves, and there was Liz seated directly across from me. She had this warm smile. She was totally present. She was seated in front of a wall of windows surrounded by pine trees with the sunlight coming in. And I just knew I would meet her. So on our first, first break, that first day, I went up to her and I introduced myself, and I found out that she grew up in New Orleans. And that was it. We were fast friends and of course, now colleagues and forever lovers of all things personal development. If I'm going to bring y'all a specific tool for self awareness, the two that have impacted me the most are the Enneagram and human design. Liz is an expert in both, and she's super generous with her insight and her wisdom. Today our conversation focuses on the Enneagram, which is a system for classifying people into nine personality types based on patterns of thinking, feeling, and doing, and how each one of those types interprets and manages the world. Liz has such a natural way of teaching the Enneagram. She gives great examples, and I know it's going to be very easy for y'all to understand. At the end of our conversation, we touch briefly on human design, which is different from the Enneagram and valuable in a very complimentary way, as you'll hear Liz describe. My hope is that knowing more about these tools leads you to discover something more about who you are, who your loved ones are, and learn more about how you show up in the world and in relationship. I find that using something like the Enneagram and or human design, it invites us into this deeper level of self knowledge in a very accessible way. It gives you a map, and when you follow that map with other people, the way Liz has helped me to follow my type and design, it becomes way more fun and interesting. It's not quite as scary when you share the journey. Okay, y'all enjoy this conversation with Liz Newcomer. Okay. I want to start right at the most important thing that we're talking about today, and I'd love for you to share with us when the Enneagram came into your life, what was happening in your life? Like, give us the background, like the context, and did you find it or did it find you?

Such a good question. Thank you. It came into my life when I was 29 years old, and I would say it found me. My mom actually invited me to an Enneagram workshop in New Orleans. I was living in New York at the time, and I really wanted to find the love of my life. But I had had a lot of bad relationships. People that I would chase and put on pedestals and worship and kind of abandon myself for, and then they would not be what I wanted them to be, because that's how it worked out, right?

Yeah.

And then I would entertain these romantic relationships where someone would put me on a pedestal, and I entertained that for three months. And then I would move back to chasing a guy. So the two things that I was working on at that time were I want to meet the love of my life and I want to be a successful actress. And neither of those things were working out. And I felt like I was the problem, and I was beating myself up and trying to figure out what was wrong with me. Why wasn't I able to manifest these dreams. And then when I went to the Enneagram workshop, that's when I figured out what my type was. And it was like everything became crystal clear as to why I was having the problems I was having having, and what I needed to do to change.

Did you feel like you recognized your type right away?

No, I thought it was your type.

I remember this about meeting you because I didn't recognize myself right away. And I actually think that's one of the tricky things about working with the Enneagram. In my experience of bringing it to coaching clients, it can be hard to find your type. And I've had a couple other clients who are really into the Enneagram who also came to me, came to our relationship having been mistyped. Either they mistyped themselves or they were not kind of clicking with it as a tool school in some other, you know, experience that they had had. So, yeah, tell me about that.

Yeah. And actually, the Enneagram, there was a few years prior to that where my mom had brought a Wisdom of the Enneagram book to a family vacation. And I had done the test, and I came out as a three. And I did think I was a type three first because in high school, I was a performer. I'm an actor. Then at this workshop, I thought I was a type 2 because relationships are very important to me. I was very like a people pleasing, giving, helper mode. And I kind of serve that role within my family.

Yeah.

So I did the entire weekend workshop thinking I was a type 2. But here's what made me realize that Maybe I wasn't a 2 when I was on the 2 panel, because that's how you did it in this workshop is you're sitting on a panel with other people who are your same type, and you're talking about your experience and how you see the world. And usually everyone's, like, nodding their head like, yes, yes, this is how we see the world. So I just wanted to talk the whole time. And twos, like, you are very deferential and like, you please, you talk. And I kept being like, I'll take the mic. So that was one difference, that I was like, I'm a lot more selfish than the rest of these two.

Yeah.

And then when I was in the audience watching the fours, they all had something unique on that they were wearing. They were wearing, like, contrast black and white with, like, pops of rust red and mustard yellow. And I looked down, and I was wearing a black and white with pops of red and yellow outfit. And I'm like, are these my people?

Yes.

So then I read the paragraph in the essential Enneagram about the type 4, and that's when I realized, oh, yes, this is who I am.

And was. Were you still at the workshop?

I was still at the workshop. And I told my teacher, Sandra. I was like, I think I might not be. And she was like, just read this paragraph. And I did. And it described the push pull pattern that I was seeing in my relationships in that paragraph. And I realized that it was a pattern that I was playing into that was just a habitual, subconscious pattern. And that if I wanted to meet the love of my life, then I would have to let go of that pattern. And six months later, I met my husband.

Oh, I love it. I love it. And as you're telling that story, I remember that my mom was the one who introduced me to the Enneagram. Both of our moms are nines, and she had gone to a continuing education course with a couple of her friends who had also become therapists as a second career. That's what they had all done together, like, in their late 40s. And she's always learning, and she's always up for, you know, different experiences. And they were driving to Baton Rouge. I was in the dining room in New Orleans, my parents home, and I was in my late 30s. And she's like, oh, I'm going to Baton Rouge to do this continuing ed thing about this self awareness tool, you know, like personality assessment. I don't even think she really knew what it was. And I remember her calling me afterwards. And I had just quit my job as a preschool teacher, and I was in this interim, like, I think I Want to do coaching? Because I've been doing it, you know, out of my living room here and there. And she said, if you really want to do this, why don't I give this to you for your birthday? And she gave me the Enneagram workshop where you and I met in North Carolina. Carolina.

Oh, my gosh.

Isn't that cool?

I love that.

God bless our moms.

Thanks to our mamas.

Yeah. So let's go back for the listener who maybe is new to the Enneagram. Maybe they've heard about it, But I don't want to go in too much depth about each type, but I really do want people to listen out for themselves in these descriptions that you can give us of the nine types. Listen out for your loved ones and just start to open up to this idea that there is a way of looking at the world. And that's what the Enneagram introduces us to, these nine ways of looking at the world. And the premise is that we really do have one that is the most guiding for us or the most defining for us. So tell us, like, what it is in your own words. And if you can run through the nine types, and maybe we can ping pong back and forth examples of those so people can find themselves.

So it is a personality system, and enia means nine, and Graham means a figure drawn. So it's a nine pointed star, and each point on the star is a different personality type. So it represents how you see the world and then what your habitual patterns are of thinking, feeling, and doing. So your personality and those patterns are subconscious because you develop them in childhood, and then they just become who you believe yourself to be. It also offers a path to growth because it makes the subconscious conscious. So then you have a choice, like I did, like, oh, okay, I can keep repeating the pattern of the push pull in the romantic, or I can actually see that there's a different way.

Yeah.

And so a lot of people don't realize that there's another way to see the world because our view is so myopic. We're like, what do you mean there's a different way of seeing something?

Yes.

But it's almost like if you looked at a pie and you cut it into nine different slivers. We only see one ninth of the whole picture. I have a really holistic and glass half full perspective of the type. Some people feel like they're boxed in by a type, but it shows you this is how you see the world. And there are gifts to how you see the world. And how you show up and you teach the rest of us that. And then there are blind spots and ways that you get blocked and the other types can show you what you're not seeing.

Yes. I'm the same way, Liz, because I approach it the same way you do. I love that glass half full because I think some people interact with it like, oh, this is my type. And stop there with the work. Like, well, I'm just. For me, I'm a two, as you know. So it's like, oh, I'm just a giver. I put my needs last. But I really like using the language the four in me or the eight in me, you know, so it's like understanding that you have this specific way of seeing the world and it's a gift, but you have a little bit of all of the types in you. The more that you get to respect and appreciate and become aware of the other types, the more free you are to be out of your type, out of the fixed box of your way of kind of coping and being in the world.

Exactly. Because like with shadow work, we have all potentials within us.

Yeah.

It's just that we are more practiced in being one way.

Yeah. So take us around the star. Which type do you like to begin with for description?

Let's start with the type 2 because there are three different centers that the three types are within.

Okay.

And we'll start with the heart types. These are relationship oriented types and what they really want in the world is love, connection and validation. And then they do it in three different ways. So our type two, which is your enneagram type, so you're going to be able to speak a lot more to this type is called the giver or the helper.

Okay.

And the way that they get love in their life is by being needed and by being helpful and taking care of other people's needs. So that's what's on their filter when they look out in the world is how can I build relationships? How can I help other people? How can I offer my services to them? The next type is a type 3. And the way they get love is by performing at a high level, by being success oriented, achievement oriented, getting tasks done. Isn't Boyd a 3?

Boyd is a 3. And I have to tell you, the first episode of I'll Meet you there is a conversation with Boyd and it's about creativity. It is also a conversation between an enneagram type 2 and an enneagram type 3. So when we were talking about his creative process as a Three, his ability to put blinders on and make himself do something. You know, he does not get distracted and going down into these rabbit holes about what somebody needs from him or even how someone is going to receive his creation. You know, as a two, not only am I interrupted easily by a dog, a child, anything the house needs, I'm also interrupted by my own inner thoughts of, if I'm writing, and I'm often writing nonfiction, how is the reader going to perceive this? And I'm often writing true, real stories about people I love and relationships. You know, no surprise if you're listening and you relate to this and you're a type two. It's all relationships.

Right.

And so it's really interesting. I thought about you because when I listened to the replay, I was like, oh, wow. And I knew I wanted to have you on this podcast. I'm like, liz is going to love this type two and type three, because you could really do the types as they relate to the creative process, because.

Each, oh, 100% is going through their.

Type to create something. I also think. I don't know if you agree with this, but I also kind of feel like America is a three.

Yes. Because the American dream, the ability to work hard and get what you want, that's the story that's built into our bones as Americans, is we work hard to pursue the American dream, and that's what threes do really well, and that's who we elevate in society. Is the type 3.

Yeah.

At least in this country.

Yeah.

And then the four, I was going to say is more like France. So the type 4, and that's my type. And they are the dreamer, the romantic. And the way they get love is by being really special and being extraordinary. So they want to be unique because they feel like if I am special, if I'm a diamond in the rough, then surely you will love me and I'll get that connection. So a lot of times, they're artists, they stand out. That's part of why, going back to me sitting on that panel, being like, I wanted to be the special. Whereas twos, they have a connection to four, but they're also okay giving someone else the credit, letting someone else be the star of the show.

What you said really resonated with me about the fours that I've known and loved and fours I've worked with. That uniqueness often comes out physically, you know, like the beauty of your living room. Like when I walked into your house when you guys did your house uptown. No one else has that look like everything in your house is so you. It's so unique. The creativity of the four is so attractive to me. Like, I just love, love that sense of individuality, romance and creativity.

Yes. And beauty and aesthetics are really important to a four. And it's a beauty in the eye of the beholder, that kind of definition. Right. And so I can tell a four from a mile away because they might have lots of piercings or tattoos or their hair's a different color or they're wearing something that you've never, you know, a one of a kind from a vintage store.

I love it. So 2, 3 and 4 are all heart centers.

Heart types.

Heart type. Okay. Okay, tell us more.

Then we're going to move on to our head types.

Okay.

And what they really want is to be secure, to be certain, to be safe.

Yeah.

And they want to avoid or move away from fear or pain.

Okay.

They live in their thoughts, they live in their mind. And our first is a type 5 and they're called the observer. And the way they get security is by a observing all around them, measuring their boundaries, managing what information they might need to know in order to act. Sherlock Holmes is the perfect example of a type 5.

Great example.

Yes.

I hadn't heard that before. That's perfect. Yeah.

Yeah. So you can see like how he zooms out. Let me take in the full picture.

Yeah.

So that I'm not leaving any stone unturned. So that I can really know what I need to know in order to be safe.

Yeah.

A Type 6 gets secure by being prepared. So they scan for worst case scenarios, what possibly could go wrong, what could happen. And they are the survivor.

Yeah.

So there's more sixes in the world than any other type because they're the ones who know how to survive. Because they've already examined every possible outcome and figured out how they're going to plan and prepare for it and then they continue on.

Yeah. They know where the exit doors are a hundred percent.

They've got all the exit plans, exit strategies figured out. They're great at designing backwards. But they're also, I think they're the most misunderstood type.

Yeah.

Because they are incredibly warm and really funny. And most of our standup comedians are type sixes.

Yeah.

Because they want to be safe by making people comfortable around them, by making people laugh. So those are our type sixes.

Yeah. It's so interesting. It's great to hear these descriptions too, because it's easier sometimes to identify what you're not.

Yes. You know the process of Elimination.

Yeah. So I'm listening to a six and I definitely have some heady energy. I have had plenty of experiences with anxiety, but it doesn't come through like that. It's not about being prepared. It's not about where the exit door is. Like, in fact, I can be outright absent minded. Like, where. Where are we? Not only where. I have no idea where we are, so how would I know the exit doors? But it's interesting because you can immediately. For the listener who's new to this, sometimes listening for the things that you know you're not can guide you to a type.

That's right.

Mocks you.

That' yeah, that. And. And that's how I usually start. If I'm doing an Enneagram typing session, I'll start by just xing out what I know that they're not.

Yes.

In order to get to what they are. But twos and sixes are what we call lookalike types.

Okay.

So they are both relationship oriented. But what's driving that for you is love and connection. And for a six, it's relationship because they're also called the loyal skeptic or the loyalist. And it's about safety. There's safety in numbers. As long as I have a friend, I won't be alone.

Yeah, I love that. All every six I've known is extremely loyal. Like the loyal through so strongly.

Yes. And I love my six friends. My husband's a six, so you're right on.

Cool.

Then our last head type is a type 7. And they're not gonna look like a head type because they're so embodied. They're really fun. They're called the adventurer or the epicure. But the way they feel safe is by having options and by having positive possibilities. So they're always looking for the shiny object. They are the people who may be in a conversation with you at a wedding, at a party. And if they're not having fun, if they feel trapped, that feels like pain and fear to them. They're going to go find the next fun thing to do or the next fun person to talk to. Also, they use their mind in making connections and almost like a highway of ideas in their head. So they're great party planners. They are a lot of entrepreneurs. A lot of startup companies come from these people who have these fast minds and can see all different possibilities.

Yeah. My friend Mark, who kind of validated the Enneagram for me once I went to the workshop where I met you. Then I started seeing it everywhere. And Mark had been working with an executive coach and is very much in the tech space and lives in Northern California. And he was my first friend who really shared with me how powerful the Enneagram is in business. And he's a seven. And he's such an ideation person. It's like, oh, I got that seven quickly. In fact, my dad is also a seven. So it's like when you know people well who are the type. And the seven, to me is so fun. Like, even talking to Mark about the Enneagram is fun. Everything is fun, fun, fun. And my dad is like that, too. It's like if we go into a little darkness or something that's stressful or painful to talk about, he will pop out of that so fast. I mean.

Oh, yeah.

Immediate hard right in the conversation. So, like, okay, I got it. We're not gonna go into the dark places. We're gonna stay with the light. We call it Sunny side of the Street.

I like to go deep. Yeah. Fours like to go deep. Sevens. I don't want to say that they like to stay on the surface, but they like to enjoy what they're talking about. So if it starts to feel trapped, I start to see them, like, bristle. And then I'm like, okay, they gotta go. I gotta let them go. They've got to be free. They have to fly. But I can see it in their body.

Yeah.

When they're ready to change it up.

Yeah. And it's a beautiful thing to know this system, because of that moment you just described. You just know. Okay. There's nothing to judge here. This is just the way that this person is. I can support this person. I mean, here I am. Listen to me. I sound exactly like a 2. I can support this person by letting them know that's what they need. But it is kind of beautiful to see somebody that way.

Yeah. Because fours take things personally.

Yeah.

And this has helped me not take it personally. And it. I can own the. The fact that I like to go deep, and I can find people like you where we can go deep for as long as we want. And then I can enjoy sevens for that connection and not need them to be something that they're not.

Yeah, exactly. I think it's so true what you said about a 7. It doesn't seem like it would be a head type because they're so in their body.

Yeah. They've got tons of energy.

Yes. So tell us about the body types.

So the body types are interested in feeling a sense of worth.

Okay.

A sense of belonging and autonomy. So issues of power and control. And like, I have value in the world. I belong here. That's what they're interested in. And they feel angry if they don't belong or if they aren't valued for their worth. And we see that in three different ways. So our type 8 is called the challenger or the protector or the boss. And they have more energy than any other type. They are really like a bull in a china shop. Like, I am here. Yeah, I am strong. And the way they secure their sense of self worth is by being direct and strong and taking action and taking up space in the world. So I love type eights because they've taught me so much about going after what I want, not apologizing for it. My best friend Simone, who passed away, she was an eight. My sister's an eight. My first Enneagram teacher was an eight. So I've really loved to just learn from them, like take up space. You deserve to be here.

Yeah. And I know this is a more detailed aspect of the Enneagram that we won't necessarily dig into today, but under certain circumstances, types move to other types.

Yes.

I've learned a lot about the 8, because under stress, a type 2 can move to type 8. And when I really dug into that and read more about it and observed myself, it was when my children were younger, it would be calm, calm, calm, I'm doing fine. Everyone has their buttered noodles. Yes, you can watch a second show. And then when I was done, it was like a switch would flip and I would go double eight boss mode. Like, get out of my face, leave me alone, shut the door. Just full swing. So I think another invitation for people listening is if you want to dig into this and learn more about your type, it really helps you in that moment. So you don't do the total swing unconsciously to this whole other type. And then you're playing out the down shadow side of the type. So I think with this tool I was able to breathe through that moment and realize, well, I have a lot of choices I can make before I'm getting to the boss. Everybody out of my way. I'm not vulnerable. I don't care if you know how I feel moment. I can make choices for my own self care before I'm under stress and going there.

And it's called a resource point. And so the lines that connect your type, there's two lines and those are your resource points. And you can go to the high side of them or the low side of them. So that what you just described was the type 2 going to the low side of your stress point. But you can also go to 8 when you're needing to take action and you're needing to prioritize yourself and voice your needs. And you can do it in a positive way. So that's why it's called a resource point.

Oh, I love that. Thank you for that. It really is a great word for it. I do feel like the eight like you. I learned so much from eights. And the action part of an eight. So inspiring.

Yeah. A type nine is next. Next. And that's what we talked about. Our moms are. And they are the peacemaker. And they look the least like a body type and the least angry because they're numb to their own anger. And what they really want is they want to keep the peace and keep harmony. And the way they feel connected in the sense of the world is in connection with other people. So this is just my image that I always have when I think of a nine. And it comes from the Grinch who Stole Christmas at the end when all the who's are holding hands.

Yeah.

And they realize that the Christmas spirit is just about being together. That's what I think about nines. It's like they just want everybody holding hands, happy, peace, harmony, no conflict in the world. But I'm sure you've seen this with your mom. And not to call out our moms, but like a two like you just described. When they have been ignoring their own needs and their own priorities for so long, that's when their anger will flare up.

Yes.

Or we might see their anger more in a stubbornness and a resistance.

Yes.

To moving and taking action.

Yes. That has been my experience. More the resistance and the repressed anger. Not the eight vocalized.

Exactly. Exactly. And our last type is a type one. And the way they ensure their sense of worth in the world is by being good and perfect and doing the right thing.

Yeah.

And so they have a whole set of internal standards. So. Standards that they measure from their body. They can feel like in their gut what is the right thing to do. And they're responsible and they do that right thing. And their anger comes out. Because anger is not usually right or perfect.

Yeah.

So a lot of times it comes out sideways. In passive aggression.

Paige Nolan 28:0

Yeah.

In clinched jaw and rigidity is how their anger is. It's like it's not right.

Yeah.

So that's our type one perfectionist. Or I call them the improver because they're really here to improve the world, to make it a better place. But sometimes they can be perfectionist.

Yes. And I think that same thing applies to a one that we talked about with a four. My ones are often physically well put together and if they're not physical you can feel their perfectionism in other ways that could be more subtle like having the perfect situation, having the conversation go perfectly or having the relationship go perfectly. I think that's another avenue for understanding your type is to just notice how you are in the world. You know, how you dress, dress what your preference is. And that was like you. I was on a panel to discover I was a two and no one on the two panel looks perfect.

I mean right?

No, I'm looking down and I'm like oh right, I forgot to put on, you know, the matching clogs. You know, I definitely have gone to work when I taught preschool in two different colored clogs and you're like oh wow. But who cares because I'm here to take care of children.

Exactly. And the type one I always think of like buttoned up and you know, shirt tucked in. And my sister in law is a type one and she is the only person who sends me flowers on important events. So I appreciate it so much because she is hardwired to do the right thing. And the right thing is to recognize when someone has had a big event and like write a thank you note, send them flowers, bring them a dish if they are sick.

Yeah.

And then she helps me remember that one is a fours resource point. It's my growth point.

Oh, interesting.

And that objectivity, that ability to again I mentioned that I was more self involved than twos. Ones can be very objective and objectively what's the right thing to do. So I appreciate them for that.

Yeah. When I have had guidance from my one friends one of the things I really appreciated is this clarity around the word that you said standards. And I think that's what you're speaking to, the objectivity as a 2 I can't locate myself some sometimes I don't know what I want, I don't know where I am and it can be exhausting because you're like I'm so tired but I don't know why I'm tired. Like who am I, where am I? Because everybody around you is so much more prevalent in your awareness. And I have found and leaned upon ones to really guide me to that righteousness. But I don't think it's righteousness in that moment. It is a rightness but in a good way. It's like the upside of having a Standard and a clarity around having a standard. And it just goes to show that all the types are so important. It really does take all of these ways of showing up and being in the world for us to evolve, you know, and for us to have compassion for each other.

That is the number one word that the enneagram has helped me have compassion for myself.

Yeah.

And for other people. And truly to be able to put myself in their shoes and understand, oh, this is why they do what they do. You know, I think whenever we have conflict, this tool is really helpful for conflict resolution, is we're just seeing our point of view.

Yeah.

And you're having your point of view. And we're actually having two different conversations. This helps us hear the other person so that we can have the same conversation, and then we can agree to disagree or we can make compromises or whatever we need to do in order to resolve the conflict, but it at least helps us get on the same playing field.

Yes. Will you take us through that moment of, how do you grow from this? There you are. You know, you're a four. You're confronted with that. That kind of ick moment. I describe it when you discover your type. Oftentimes there is this moment of like, oh, I'm not. I can't. I had that with the two when I sat on the panel, because I didn't realize the extent of pride that's connected with being a two. And so to see that in myself, like, the arrogance that I could help anyone and everyone. And someone on the panel described it as an invisible string to people. And I feel it in the grocery store a lot. If anyone in the grocery store needs help. I have to tell you this funny moment that there was a man in, like, a motorized wheelchair, like, trying to reach cereal, and I was next to him, and I was so aware of the two, and I said, I am not going to reach that cereal box unless I really know that he needs help. He kind of makes eye contact with me, and he asks for help. And so then I give him the help, and he's like, you know, I come to this grocery store, and my daughter and my wife. Wife. Don't think I can do this by myself, but I really wanted to come to this grocery store today, and this is what I want to do. And he was really fierce about it. And he was like, and I'm so grateful that you helped me. And, like, I'm going to go on and do this, you know, and I can be in the grocery store. And I was like, you can be in the grocery store. You can do it. But the unaware two doesn't give that pause for people to either need help or ask for help or be empowered. I've had moments where I've helped people who don't want my help.

Right.

You know, and it undermines the whole thing. And there's a humility in the two. So I guess my point is, is it's hard to be aware. Like, that's one of the reasons why we're not aware.

Right.

When you get self aware, it really does open up how you can relate to others and how you can show up as a version of yourself that invites other people to be their full selves. But the growth is difficult. So take us through that moment, either with yourself or just how you see people grow through. I don't know if it's breath work, if it's journaling, if it's. What is it? How do we get better?

One thing that's coming through for me as you're describing is I always think of a type 2 and a basketball court.

Okay.

And I think that a lot of times, twos spend most of their time in someone else's side of the court.

Yes.

And so you've left your side of the court. That's why it's hard to know who you are or what you are or what your needs are, because you're on the other side of the court. And so I always try to remind my two clients. Clients to come back to your side of the court, meet them halfway, and I love. I'll meet you there.

Yeah.

Title for you. It's like you show up to the center court line, and I will meet you there too. And you get to take care of your needs, and I get to take care of mine, and I get to ask you as a four when I want your help. And it's a balance of give and take. And so that's the journey for a type 2 is realizing you're not loved, gentlemen, just because you give and because you help, because you enjoy giving. So you have to also receive so that you're giving the gift of giving to someone else.

Yes.

Right.

Yeah.

And that's the balance. That's what you're here to learn.

And I love that you brought that up, because when I first learned about it, my type, or for a listener, if you're first learning about your type, the mind can go, well, now I can't do that. I can't give, or now I can't. In Boyd's world, as a type 3. And I think that I'm. I'm sure we have a lot of Type three listeners. It's like, well, now what am I supposed to do? Do not achieve. What am I supposed to do? Not focus. That's why I felt so proud of myself with the man in the grocery store, because I just paused, I just waited. I didn't jump in. And then he was able to ask me. I did help him. And it made him feel good that he can get help if he can't reach something, but he wants to still go to the grocery store by himself. Good for him. So I feel like this awareness, it gives you that chance to be more balanced to the word that you use as opposed to reacting like, oh, well, now in the one's mind, I can't go for the standard. I can't have it be, yes, you can. It's just more of a balance. What, in the type 1? Because I think perfectionism is pretty pervasive.

Right.

What is the growth there for that person?

So for a Type one, their growth journey is about the vice to virtue. Because I think that's a. Those are good words as, like, points on a map of how you grow. And so you talked about pride, the pride of being the one who can help that man.

Right.

And so your journey is to humility and to allowing yourself to receive and the balance. Balance of give and take.

Okay.

So that's that vice to virtue journey. For a type 1, it is from anger to serenity. And so it's about letting go of. Sometimes it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong. Yeah, it doesn't matter. It's like, yes. And I tell this to my type 1 friends and clients all the time. I'm like, you are right.

Yeah.

And yet you being right, sometimes holding on to that is causing you so much, much stress. And that rigidity, I always feel it in my shoulder. It's like, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?

Yes.

And the serenity prayer for a one. That's exactly what it is.

Yeah.

Letting go of what is not within your control. Because they can control so much of themselves and they want to try to control other people. But ultimately that's a fool's errand and you have to let go and let other people make mistakes if they're going to forgive yourself for making mistakes because you're human. And that's what that journey looks like. But some of what you're saying and what you're describing and that. That moment in the Grocery store. There is a pause that comes from self awareness. Right. And you are able to give yourself that pause of your normal go to behavior and make a different choice. And that is what each type is able to do. And it's uncomfortable because our go to response, it's automatic. We don't even think about it. We don't even realize that there is a space to have the pause. And I heard this quote and it's one of my favorite quotes. It's by Viktor Frankl in man's search for meaning. And he says between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom. And so that's the first step is just realizing that there is a space.

Yeah.

Right. And if you can catch yourself and you can see that you're wanting to reach for it and you pull pause and then you get to choose. Do I want to wait for him to ask for help or do I want to just go for it? We can look at that for each type. But that is what the growth journey is about.

I love that. It's so true and it's so universal. Everybody has the opportunity to pause.

Yes. And I think that's why I love the enneagram so much, is because it shows you who you think you are.

Yes.

But also who you have the capacity to be.

Yeah.

Which is greater than you believe yourself to be.

Yeah. How about for the four?

It's envy to equanimity.

Okay.

So envy being the comparing mind and always feeling like something is missing. Going back to the being special and unique.

Yeah.

Right. So the way that fours make themselves unique is what am I missing? What do I not have? And how can I make that special?

Yeah.

So you're always not enough or too much and you're comparing yourself to others. And what's going to make me stand out? If you saw inside out too. And they added envy.

Yes.

As one of the characters. And I love her because she's like, she looks at someone, she's like, oh my God, her hair is so beautiful. And so it's that kind of. You're always like looking at other people as everyone else has it. And something must be wrong with me. There's a hole that I'm trying to fill. And so the journey is to realize that I am and I have everything I need. I am enough.

Yeah.

I am whole. And equanimity is emotional balance. So it's no longer going from that push, pull pattern that I've mentioned. It's about the steady waters.

Do you think fear of missing out is a type four?

I think for a type four and a type seven and a type nine.

Yeah.

Yes. Fear of missing out for a type four is going to feel like outsiders a lot. Like they don't belong because there's something about them that's missing for sevens. They don't want to miss out because it could possibly be really fun. So they. Yeah, they have a hard. Yeah, they're like, oh, is it more fun over there? Is the conversation more fun over there than the one I'm having right now? So they've got fomo. Type nines have trouble making decisions. And I think of the word decision meaning to cut, and going back to that Grinch who Stole Christmas, everybody being connected, cut to make a decision. It means there's a disconnection, there's a potential rupture.

Yeah.

So nines don't want to miss out because they want peace, harm, harmony, don't want to be disconnected.

Yeah. So what is the movement? And a nine.

So nines go from sloth.

Okay.

And most nines hate that. And by the way, you might notice that these are the seven deadly sins plus two more. So each vice is a seven deadly sin. And then there's also fear for a type 6, and there's also deceit for a type 3. So we'll get to those. But sloth, it's really a lazy easiness to oneself and to one's own priorities.

Yes.

And so they almost numb out their own priorities so that they can merge with other people.

Okay.

So they have to actually remember themselves and their virtues called right action. And it's really about, like, prioritizing what's right for them.

Yeah.

That's why nines and twos look so similar, because for you, it's about needs for nines, it's about merging with other people's priorities and agendas and what do you value and what do you care about?

Yeah. I remember that talking to my mom about that mistyping, like, she first thought she was a two. But keeping the piece is really important to my mom. And I also want to say about, you know, moving from having a vice to a virtue. And kind of what we're talking about right now with a 9 and with all the types, it doesn't mean that a 9 is lazy in life. You know, I think sometimes we hear this, it's like, well, sloth, I'm not going to have a career. I'm not. I mean, my mom has had two Incredible careers person is always doing things, you know, so it's just like the three. They're a heart type. So a three. When I describe Boyd as putting blinders on and getting work done, it doesn't mean he's not a warm, caring person. So it's just, again, an invitation to dig into this even more. If you're listening and you're hearing some sense of recognition, there's layers to this, which is what I think is so beautiful about the neighborhood. Enneagram.

Me too.

Yeah.

I have a story about my mom, and it illustrates this journey from sloth to right action. She was visiting me when I was living in New York, and I had an adorable apartment in the West Village, and it was really cozy. And one morning I woke up, and I was like, let's go out and take a brisk walk. Like, let's get some exercise, get our blood moving. And my mom was cozy and comfortable in the apartment, and she wanted to drink her coffee and read her book and stay at peace. So I could feel the stubbornness, the resistance. I could feel it in her. She trying to make this decision, do I go with Liz on a walk or do I stay here? And so she kind of was like, okay, let's go. And we went for the walk, and we just saw all these sights, you know, on 7th Avenue, and we got a coffee on our walk, and the birds were chirping, and it was exciting. And we came back, and she felt so much more alive and present. And she pointed to that moment, and she said, because I know I'm a nine, and I know I have a tendency to want to stay asleep and to stay in my comfort zone that I had to push myself out to do this, because I now recognize that I'll be happier, I'll be more awake after. So that's an example of what it looks like in real life.

I love that. That's such a great one. And it's great to know your partners, you know, the fact you and your mom are in a close relationship. Relationship to know about each other's types so that you could have compassion for her in that moment. It's the same with my parents. My dad's a seven, my mom's a nine. So for the seven to have compassion for women, my mom wants to stay cozy. That whole story could have been my mom, too. You know, he wants to go, go, go, go, go, you know, and for her to sometimes go, which she does. Sometimes she meets him with that fun energy and goes and does the things. But other times, she doesn't want to do that because she's okay to sit with more emotions than he is.

Yes. I have a story about a type 8 journey, and it's also in New York, but it's about my sister. And so the eight journey is going from lust, okay. Or also called excess, to innocence, or what I translate as a sense of wonder. And so when we think of lust, a lot of times we think about, like, sexuality, but it's really about more, this sense of, like, excess. Like, I want more. I want more. I want it all. When Hamilton first came out on Broadway, we got tickets because I knew the music director. And so my mom, my sister, my niece and I all went to see Hamilton. And this is when tickets were just exorbitant. We were in the orchestra, we saw it, we all loved it. And my sister and I think Hamilton, by the way, is an 8. So, like, his voracious never being, like, it never being enough. His, like, constant writing the song about not ever being satisfied. And so afterwards, my sister was like, I have to see it again. And she was willing to pay whatever price. And now Taylor Swift is coming to New Orleans this week, weekend. And so it's kind of the same thing. It's like, I will pay whatever it takes. I've got to see it again. And I could feel that sense of, like, lust, excess, like, give me more, more, more, more, more. What I was thinking about was her virtue is the sense of wonder and the sense of innocence and, like, being able to appreciate one piece of sand in a whole beach, right? Like, that's what the eight, they think that they need the entire white beach sand. But, like, really, if they. In a grain of sand, if they can appreciate the wonder of the.

That's.

That's what the journey looks like. So I just tried to remind her. I'm like, we had the most amazing experience, and you get to carry that forever. And she's like, no, give it to me.

What about the seven?

So the seven goes from gluttony.

Okay.

To constancy or sobriety.

Okay.

I always think of there's a National Lampoons. I think it's either European vacation where the daughter is like, there's a full smorgasbord of food. And so whereas eights want more, more, more. Sevens just want to try everything.

Yeah.

So going back to that fomo, they don't want to leave something untouched because maybe that was the best.

Right?

So there is a sense of, like, I want all the options. I want to visit every country. I want to taste every type of food. And what they end up missing out on is what happens when you stay with something.

Yes.

So that's why constancy or sobriety is the virtue. We see this in marriage.

Yeah.

So I do know sevens who have gotten divorced and moved on, only to find out that, like, challenges will be in any marriage. And so the beauty that comes from staying with one person, I'm sure your dad could speak to it with being with your mom.

Yeah. Yeah.

Is all of the experience and the beauty and the joy and the fun and that he's been able to experience in one marriage is the virtue of constancy.

Yeah. I've had a few wonderful seven clients, but one in particular, who I just adore this woman. And she really leaned into yoga to find the stillness. And she is very aware of the enneagram and was really using the enneagram as a tool. But it was just amazing to witness her, like, really committing to that practice and being with her emotions through the stillness of a body. Practice and letting whatever is going to come up, come up.

I'm glad you said that, because when I mentioned that there's a heart type, there's head types and there's body types, a lot of times, times our growth journey is in a different center.

Yes.

So for us, we're heart types, but getting into our bodies is really helpful for us to take action, for us to grow. If you're a head type, you can get into your body or you can get into your heart. And same with the body for an eight, where it's just about go, go, go, take action. When they get into their heart, their vulnerable, soft heart, that's where they grow the truth.

When you feel an 8 in his or her heart, there's nothing like it. The vulnerability is so pure and it's so powerful. Tell us about the movement with the three.

Yeah. So the three goes from deceit and. Or vanity.

Okay.

And it moves to honesty. And so what? The deceit and the vanity means lying to themselves about what they're capable of.

Yeah.

And. Or not always looking at it. I know a lot of type threes who are really great, exaggerated refrigerators. And it's not that they're liars. It's just that they, like, see the best and they just want to spin it in a way. Like, my aunt is a three, and my mom jokes that, like, wherever she goes, whatever country she visits or bag she buys, it is the best. She's a real estate agent. She's so good at her job because Every house. And it's not that she doesn't believe it. It's like, it has the best kitchen. You wouldn't even believe. And their virtue is on honesty.

Okay.

And so a lot of it is about, like, what you're truly capable of, and you don't need to do more in order to be loved.

Yeah.

Your being is enough.

Yeah.

It is lovable enough. And so that being honest with oneself about what you're capable of, who you really are, letting down the mask. Because threes are really good about performing. And so it's like being on and putting on the mask. It's sort of like taking that mask off and let us see who you really are and know that you're lovable for that.

Oh, that's such a beautiful invitation. I just want to underscore everyone listening, or most people listening, are American or deeply connected to American culture. So to go back to our point earlier, that message, what you just said, is true for everyone, because America is a three. And so if we're living here and we're living in this culture, I mean, that's the opportunity of a lifetime to be who you are, to be with yourself and your wholeness. And that's really tricky to do in our culture.

Yeah. So, yeah.

Yeah, I like that. How that 3 can apply to everyone.

I have a type 3 client, and she's looking for love. She's in her early 30s now, and we discovered on one of our calls that she was like, okay, so what do I do? What's my next step?

I'm laughing because that is void. It's like the to do list reigns in his world. Like, what do we do?

Yes. What do we. What do I do? Something's not working. What do I do? So as we're talking about it, I realized that she had all of these conditions of things that she needed to do in order to win the partner.

Yeah.

And so I'm like, oh, your job is to love yourself unconditionally and to start noticing what conditions you're putting on yourself. Start dismantling all of those conditions that you're putting on yourself. Because at the end of the day, you want someone who likes you, whether you look sweaty after a workout or like, you're dressed to the nines.

Yeah.

You know, so that it's not about how you perform, but it's who you are on the inside.

Yes. Love it. So tell us about the five and the six.

So the five's vice is avarice, or what we know of as greed.

Okay.

And I Wouldn't think it's so much in terms of money. It's a hoarding of one's resources.

Okay.

So fives are very protective and boundaried around their time, space and energy. Because this feeling is I may not have enough and so I've got to hold on to it and I can't give it away and I. I can't give you what you want because I might be depleted and they don't want that.

Okay.

And so the journey is to non attachment from a real Buddhist perspective. Right. So it's like the open hand, having something in your hand and letting it come and letting it go, knowing that the resource will always be there. Right. So energy, time and space are all sort of constructs that there's an endless amount of resources of energy. There's a really great show on Apple that's called Stillwater.

Okay.

And it's about this panda and he is a type 5. It's so sweet because he practices non attachment in such a beautiful way and teaches these cartoon kids who live next door all about being able to hold what is and not have to hold on to it. Yeah, right. Like hold with an open hand.

Yeah.

So that's their journey.

And what about the six?

And the six is from fear to courage. Okay. And so I think every human can relate.

This is another one. Yeah, this is another one. Like I think perfectionism is so universal. I think the achievement of the three is so universal. And this aspect of the six, it's all of us.

Yes. And people pleasing of a two is universal as well. So the six fear is I'm not going to be capable. It comes down to trust, it comes down to faith and not trusting themselves. And so that's why they've got to be prepared because what if I don't have all of the protection? I think about hurricanes a lot with type Sixes because that's a situation where as long as they know what they need to know, like if they know a hurricane is coming, they will be prepared and then they can trust, then they can have faith. But that courage is inside of them and they don't actually need to know all of the information in order to pull upon that courage of the heart. And they often are the most courageous, courageous types. So I have a type 6 dear friend who's a coach, she lives in LA, she left New York City and she lived in Joshua Tree for six months by herself in a little camper. And I can't think of anything more courageous and risky than being alone in the Desert.

Yes. Yes.

So they have that capability of really being courageous and taking big risks.

I feel that same way with a six, it's like you would think that they would be paralyzed by fear. I've had this wonderful six client. The amount of inner work that she's willing to do, once she gets in there, it's like she will look at it, she will read about it, she will verbalize it.

Yes.

It's like, yeah, bring it on. I'm going to look at this.

They are my favorite types to coach because they'll just go deep with me. They'll be like, okay, give it to me all. I want to see it.

Yeah.

Yeah. And that fear, it's like if you can see it, then it's less scary.

Right.

It's the same thing with shame for heart types. It's like if you name it, then you can own it and you can realize that you're lovable for whatever it is. So that facing their fear, feeling the fear and doing it anyway, is their virtue.

Yeah. So I could listen to you talk about the Enneagram for three hours. Needless to say, or more we've done that with each other. So I'm so curious because you have gone on, in addition to to your Enneagram coaching practice and using the Enneagram so much in your work, you went on and studied human design. And I'm aware of our time, so we're not going to go into depth about human design. But I think what I'm most curious about is just why add another self awareness tool? Like what was it compelling and what is this thing with you, like your passion around helping people unlock themselves. Tell me more about that and tell me how human design plays into your practice and how it complements the Enneagram or is different from the Enneagram. I'm hoping that someone listening will hear something in this conversation that will motivate them to dig into both of these tools. Because you and I share this. I mean, I really feel like both the Enneagram and Human Design have changed my life. Without a doubt. Like they've added so much quality to my relationship. So much awareness, so much choice. A word that you used earlier so you know, being aware of our time. But I don't want to leave you without understanding why add it? Why go study human design and what's that about for you and what's that about for your clients?

Well, my first response is why not? Yeah. Because all the self discovery tools, I'll take everything the Enneagram, as I Mentioned is about who you became to be and so the patterns that you developed over time.

Okay.

And your human design is about who you were born to be. So it's a map of your energy and what you are here to give naturally. And I've always been obsessed with the state of flow. You know, when you're just, like. You feel good, like, synchronicities are happening, you're loving life. You, like, see with fresh, bright, open eyes. I love that feeling. Spirituality. That's been my experience with it. When I'm in that state of receptivity and I'm in the flow of life, and I'm just present.

Yeah.

And so human design for me, shows me how to use my energy.

Okay.

And how to give what comes naturally to me and then how to pay attention to the places that I don't actually have consistent access to. I may not be good at one thing, and if I try to. And maybe this is going to resonate with you or your listeners. When we see other people do it one way.

Yes.

And we're like, well, I guess if I did it that way, then I could be successful too.

Yeah.

Going back to Lin Manuel Miranda, I was like, I wish that I had the ability to write Hamilton the Musical and, like, have that success. But if I look at his human design, I would be able to tell you exactly why he was able to do that. And I want to know that for myself. That's why I got into it, because I'm like, what are my special superpower gifts?

Yeah.

And then what are not my gifts? And where am I open to being susceptible or conditioned by other people? And then how do I, like, practice being better at that if it's important to me, but also, how do I let go of needing to make that my priority?

Yes. So I love that. Because human design, the way that it's come into my life, is based on your birth time, place, location, and it is a moment in time. And it really stands upon this idea that you are here with a purpose. You are designed to be the way that you are. And like, Enneagram, there's types to it. But just from my own personal example, because I think this will help people. I'm a manifesting generator. And one of the things about that type is taking on a lot following that gut feeling. The way that I make a decision is very much from a gut feeling, which is a human design thing that you can learn about yourself. And so in that moment of me saying, saying, yes, it's all great. Fill my life up yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. For years, I didn't know why I wouldn't finish everything I said yes to. And it was through human design that it was like a manifesting generator doesn't finish everything they say yes to. They say yes, and then they find more information and more information. And if you can sustain the energy, you can finish the thing, but you're actually supposed to let things drop, drop off. And I mean, to the point where, Liz, I would be so critical that I couldn't finish a book. Not fiction, because fiction can really grip you, especially if it's a good novel. But the amount of nonfiction that I read, it's like the last 20% of the pages. If I get another inclination to explore a different topic, I'm not reading. I'm not reading the last 20% of that book. And I used to be ashamed, and now I'm like, oh, this is just how I move through things. I'm fast. I want to process it. I want to move on. I don't need the last 50 pages of the book. I got it right.

And not making yourself wrong. I can be really good at making myself wrong. And oh, there must be something wrong with me. Goes back to my type 4. If only I was able to do this, then I would have everything that I want. And so it helps me realize that there's nothing wrong, there's no mistake. And I guess to answer why I studied it and why the Enneagram and why I do this work in the world. And my biggest fear would be to get to the end of my life and realize that I didn't fully live the life that I was here to live. And if everybody could really own who they are and be themselves, what a beautiful world we would have. And I think the main conflict that comes in the world is when we abandon ourselves. And that's what I care about. That's what I want to do more of and model that myself, model that for my children, for my clients, in my relationships with my husband and my loved ones, is to be myself. And then show them that I want them to be who they are.

Yes. Compassion, acceptance. There's nothing more powerful than self awareness. And really, it's the seed of change. It's the seed of choice. I'm so grateful for the work that you do in the world, and thank you for showing up for this community of listeners. And I will put everything in the show, notes, how to reach you, that you are doing, tight typing conversations with people to help people discover their Enneagram type you're doing human design readings where you move through the human design chart with someone. I have personally had readings from you. I know you're so good at what you do and I hope that some of the listeners will feel compelled to explore this more with you and just on your own. So we'll make sure to put some links of books and places that you can find out more about Enneagram and human design.

Awesome. Thank you Paige. This has been so lovely.

It's the best. It's the best.

You forever.

Thank you so one of my favorite poets is David White and he writes A real conversation always contains an invitation. You are inviting another person to reveal herself or himself to you to tell you who they are and what they want. I always have real conversations with Liz and I think this is one of her gifts to help each one of us get into a real conversation with ourselves. The Enneagram is an invitation. Invitation. Human design is an invitation and self awareness is where the truth of who you are and what you want is revealed. It's a worthy journey. It's a courageous quest. Liz, I'm so grateful that you have been one of my guides and friends along this journey. I know how committed you are to trusting and knowing and being who you really are. It seems like it would be obvious and easy for all of us, especially as we get older, we have more life experiences, we understand more and more about ourselves. But I find still at every age there's that invitation and it takes courage to accept it. Thank you Liz for making this something that people can say yes to. We put links in the show notes for y'all to find. Liz, find out more about the Enneagram and human design. And if you feel compelled, book a typing session. You'll learn so much and your relationships will be better for it, she says. As a true type too. As always, thanks for being here and I'll meet you again soon. Thanks to each of you for being here and for listening. I'm so grateful we get to share life in this way. As always, full show notes are available@pagenolan.com podcast there you will find a full summary of the episode, timestamps and key takeaways and any resources mentioned in our conversation. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love if you would leave me a rating and a review. You can do that by visiting pagenolan.com love your reviews, really do help people to discover the show. And if you know someone specifically who would enjoy this episode, I'm so grateful to have you all share. I'LL meet you there with your friends. Lastly, if you have any questions or comments, or if you would like to share any feedback with me, Please email to meetmetherapagenolan.com I would love to hear from you. Thank thank you to the team that makes this show possible. Podcast production and marketing by North Node Podcast Network Music by Boyd McDonnell Cover photography by Innes Casey okay y'all, that's it for now. I'll meet you there again.