5: Transforming Divorce Conflict into Collaboration with "Team Us" - Scott Levin

Paige Nolan [0:01 - 0:01]: North node.

Scott Levin [0:02 - 0:16]: Most of our work is all three of us in the same room, virtually or in person. Very rarely, but occasionally I will put people in separate rooms and do the whole back and forth. But most of the time, I'm really trying to keep everyone in the same room so they hear each other.

Paige Nolan [0:16 - 0:16]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [0:17 - 0:35]: You know, it's not about, like, positioning or posturing in mediation. Like, I know people start up here and here, and that idea is, like, to meet in the middle most of the time. Like, that's kind of like B's. I mean, most of the time, if you hear the person directly, you kind of naturally will come to, like, more equitable solutions from the beginning.

Paige Nolan [0:42 - 2:56]: Hi, I'm Paige Nolan. Welcome to. I'll meet you there. A place where heart centered conversations are everything. Living what matters is the truest thing, and sharing the journey is the best. Hi, everyone, and welcome back. I'm delighted to share my conversation with you today. I know y'all are going to appreciate my guest because he has a lot to share about relationships and getting along. Today, my guest is my friend, Scott Levin. Scott is an attorney and mediator with more than two decades of experience helping couples to divorce in the healthiest way possible. And to Scott, that means helping couples to stay out of the court system and resolve their conflicts through mediation. He is the founder and managing partner of San Diego Divorce Mediation and family law, known for its caring, professional, peaceful approach to divorce and co parenting disputes. Our conversation is not specifically about divorce. It's not about the details of getting divorced. It is about conflict resolution and how we can sharpen our relationship skills and work as a team. Whether you're working to stay together in a marriage, a partnership, a relationship, or you're working to separate, the conversation really is relevant for all of us. Scott has trademarked the nickname chief peacekeeper, and that is exactly what intrigued me about talking to him. I wanted to know more about peacekeeping and especially hear Scott's perspective, given that he's often in the middle of some intense discord and disagreements. You're going to hear Scott talk about teamwork and creative solutions and how to build momentum when you're working towards collaborating to solve an issue. He offers us great guidance and he makes some really insightful observations about working together. Some of it will be reminders for you, and some of it may be new ideas. I found all of it to be so valuable, and my favorite thing he talks about is at the very end of our conversation when I ask him what has surprised him about his work, what has he learned about people, I think you'll be as inspired by his answer as I was. Enjoy this conversation with Scott Levin. Well, let's start there. I want to start with.

Scott Levin [2:56 - 2:57]: Yeah, let's start.

Paige Nolan [2:58 - 4:13]: One of the reasons, when you and I ran into each other at Clayton's wedding and we talked briefly about, you have a podcast, and I had started this podcast, and you had tracked that. And so when we had that little moment of exchange and I thought about having you on, I really was captivated by the idea of peacekeeping. So no matter when anybody's listening to this episode, we are recording in 2024. And it's a time on the planet where keeping peace is important. Understanding how to get along, understanding how to talk to people who have different viewpoints than you have, how to work with teenagers, maybe, who have a completely different reality than you had when you were a teenager. So that's kind of my big picture, is I want to go there with our conversation, but in the true spirit of what I get interested before I can go to the real point that I wanna go to, I always like to understand the context, and I like to start with, why law school? What was it about your. Maybe even your temperament or your personality as a kid that even got you into this? You know, we're ultimately talking about career path, but I wanna talk about life in general. So will you take us back to early little Scott and any interest?

Scott Levin [4:13 - 4:14]: Scott, Scott.

Paige Nolan [4:14 - 4:15]: Little pieces.

Scott Levin [4:15 - 4:21]: Love that. I love. I love little Scott. I sometimes wish he was still in me.

Paige Nolan [4:21 - 4:24]: Yeah, I think he is. Scott. I think he is.

Scott Levin [4:25 - 5:51]: I was the glue of every. I was kind of the glue of situations. So, you know, similar to, you know, our mutual friend Titan, you know, in my family, I was kind of the glue, the person that, like, you know, the positivity, let's, you know, like the, you know, we can do this, like rooting on people. In my friend's group, you know, I wasn't the coolest. I didn't, you know, didn't get all the girls, but, you know, I added a little spark to it and, you know, was always a little on the safe side, too. Like, I made sure things didn't get too crazy, but, you know, I was just kind of, like. I kind of had. I was kind of that chess piece that made things, you know, a little bit better, a little bit more positive, you know, when someone, you know, had something real that happened, you know, I had a bunch of friends growing up that, like, you know, moved to Michigan, like, in fourth and fifth and 6th grade because their parents got divorced. And, you know, I always stayed in touch with them. I always called them to say, what's up? Still friends with them today. So, like, I was just kind of that. You know, I was. I was thinking of others and was always interested in maintaining and furthering relationships. Kind of like on one step down, one little layer deeper than just throwing the ball around.

Paige Nolan [5:51 - 5:54]: What birth order are you? Do you have siblings?

Scott Levin [5:54 - 5:59]: Yeah, there's four of us total. So I was the baby for ten years.

Paige Nolan [5:59 - 6:00]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [6:00 - 6:20]: So my older brother. My older siblings are five and four years older than me. And then I had a younger brother that was born ten years after. So for most, you know, for the formative years, I was the baby. My siblings would say the favorite one, and I have three kids, so I agree that the little one always, you know, gets that.

Paige Nolan [6:20 - 6:24]: It's easy to say that, yes, the dynamic with the baby being favorite.

Scott Levin [6:25 - 6:38]: But then I kind of played a little bit of caretaker to my younger brother. I mean, lots of nights that, you know, I could have gone out, you know, in high school and stuff like that. We would hang out and, you know, we would. We would play, so we were pretty close.

Paige Nolan [6:38 - 6:48]: And did you have an inkling early on in high school about pursuing a certain type of career or even specifically law or. Not yet.

Scott Levin [6:48 - 7:17]: I'm actually surprised I didn't follow through with this, because I was very committed to being, like, you know, an entertainment lawyer. Sports attorney, yeah. You know, from a very, very young age. Like, that's what I wanted to. I didn't really know what it meant or what. Like, you know, the day to day of that world was like. But I was pretty sure that's what I was gonna do. I read a book, you know, like, Arthur Ashe was like, I played tennis growing up. As cool as that is.

Paige Nolan [7:17 - 7:17]: Well, super now.

Scott Levin [7:17 - 7:18]: I should.

Paige Nolan [7:18 - 7:21]: I was gonna say it's super cool now because you can keep playing.

Scott Levin [7:22 - 8:26]: Yeah, that's true. But there was Arthur Ash's, like, kind of right hand man or agent was Donald Dell, and was just, like, a really interesting person that, like, I kind of was following from afar. He was, like, one of the really early sports agents. So, yeah, I always intended to pursue that. I went to law school, you know, thinking that's what I would do. And, you know, when I came out of law school, I just. I chickened out a little bit, you know, when you had to. I don't know why. I don't remember what my thinking was. Like when I was in Moscow, I went to University of Virginia, and everybody was interviewing at these big firms, and there were no sports agencies coming to hire you. So I was making calls, sending out letters. I wasn't really getting anywhere, and I didn't want to graduate, I guess, without a job or somewhere to go. So I got a job. Let's see, 20 years later, I'm working the job.

Paige Nolan [8:28 - 8:33]: What was that first line of fire? Did you go into family law, or you just went into general practice?

Scott Levin [8:33 - 9:48]: No, I was just. I was at a big firm doing litigation and whatever they gave me. So I worked there for five years. I always was big on continuing to. I was not networking to get more money or networking to, you know, know, more people for the sake of knowing more people. But again, I was just, like, kind of interested. When I went to, like, you know, a bar event or, like, you know, happy hour with the firm, I would, you know, I wouldn't necessarily talk to 200 people, but I would talk to, like, three people, you know, and we'd have, like, nice, real conversations and, like, you know, like, I just knew that, like, my lot in life wasn't going to be working, you know, for other people, for a big firm. I didn't want to do that. I just needed to kind of understand how it all worked. And I thought, like, about five years was, like, kind of the cycle that I was ready. And then actually, my wife and I left that firm. Originally. We created a fundraising, like, platform. We have a startup that has been, like, hot and cold over time, but, like, at times, it's been like, wow, this, like, I'm going to be on t. I'm going to be, like a startup success story.

Paige Nolan [9:48 - 9:49]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [9:49 - 10:00]: And then, you know, at other times, it was like, no, no, no. Yeah, like, yeah, so we've done that. So I really put a lot of time into that for about four or five years.

Paige Nolan [10:00 - 10:04]: And was that at the same time, Scott, as you were at the big firm?

Scott Levin [10:05 - 12:43]: No, it was after we kind of had the idea for the startup. It was a really original idea. It had, like, kind of a niche to it, and so, you know, we just left, and we self funded it, and we. We developed the technology, and we were doing that. We made all the, you know, the relationships, the partnerships. We got it from, like, off the ground to, like, you know, a real business. But then, you know, when I woke up one day, about another five years later, so now, like, ten years out of law school, so I'm no, like, you know, super young guy anymore. And I had, you know, two and a half kids, and I was like, well, you know, I think we need to like, you know, have some stable income. So at that point, that's really when I really evaluated. Like, what do I want to do? Because I wanted to do something impactful. I wanted to do something that could make money and that where I could, like, you know, a lot of factors that control my own schedule. And I knew that I wasn't going to, you know, just jump back into, like, a big, you know, law firm life. So that's when I actually. My therapist recommended, you know, that I look at mediation originally. She was like, you know, just seems like a real. It's like, kind of. I don't know, she had a whole thing of the why. But, you know, in retrospect, it really did fit my personality. It really fit my aligned with, like, you know, the inner me of what I was trying to, you know, go for. And, you know, in mediation, you can make an impact on people's lives. Now, it doesn't change society as a whole, but, you know, you can really have an impact on people and their kids and their futures. I ran into an old, old client the other day, and this was a tough case. She was kind of a methamphetamine addict. He was a. I guess, you know, or designated or whatever assigned as a sexual. Sex addict. And they had this little house, and they were. They had hired attorneys at first, and both attorneys put liens on the house. That's what attorneys do when you go through divorce at first. So they. To make sure that they get paid. Like, a lawyer will put a lien on your house before they've started their work. Yeah, right. How does that make you feel? That kind of. That's gonna freak you out. So, like, they saw that, they were like, wow, we gotta try to find another way to do this. So we. We did a mediation, and we were successful. And I saw her the other day. She ran up to me and was like, I'm nine years sober. This was a long time ago.

Paige Nolan [12:43 - 12:44]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [12:44 - 12:49]: But she's like, do you know what our house is worth? We're about to sell it. And I was like, you guys still have the house because they owned it together.

Paige Nolan [12:49 - 12:50]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [12:50 - 12:57]: And I was like, she's like, yeah. And I was like, what's it worse? She was like, that little house is worth 3.5 million.

Paige Nolan [12:57 - 12:59]: Oh, my goodness. Wow.

Scott Levin [12:59 - 13:17]: And do you know. You know, we wouldn't. They would have lost the house. They wouldn't have had the house. If they had litigated, it would have been gone. They would have had to sell it for pennies. So, you know, on that family and their two kids that are now graduating college, I mean, that. That little impact, you know, is, you know, the why.

Paige Nolan [13:18 - 13:18]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [13:18 - 13:22]: And, of course, you know, I have a house, and, you know, we can pay our bills, too.

Paige Nolan [13:22 - 13:22]: Sure.

Scott Levin [13:22 - 13:26]: It's not like, you know, it's not like I'm not getting anything returned, but it's. It's.

Paige Nolan [13:26 - 15:18]: It's really impactful when you say, you know, it doesn't impact the big picture. I think about that a lot in my work, because when I've. I don't coach couples all the time, but what happens when I take on individuals? Most of my coaching practice are middle aged women, and so if I see an opportunity to bring in their partner, you know, and have a conversation or, you know, I wouldn't call it mediation because we're not reaching a final goal, but it's some space that I can hold where everyone can say what they're really feeling and kind of work our way through that conversation, reveal more, you know, move the needle forward. So it's like this big idea of, okay, stay together. That's such a big idea, you know, or get better in the marriage or be happier overall. And I am. I experience now it's the smallest thing. It's the one thing they say in the conversation, or it's the one thing you do, you know, where you make eye contact when you're eating dinner or in people's career paths, like, in your case. I think it takes a lot of courage to really confront that idea of, I want to do something that fits my skills. I need to pay the bills. I'm a father now, and that's a big idea, like, how to change my career at this point in my life where I'm not young, and then it's one conversation with a therapist or maybe two, and then it's one networking coffee with somebody who's in mediation, or one. I want to go there next. I want to understand what you had to do to get in it. But maybe it's training. Maybe it's something that starts so small, and then I think that in this larger context of our conversation about peace, just knowing that that couple who's now, you know, I guess they're not married. Right. They're speaking, though, like. Or they have a co owned, you know, assets.

Scott Levin [15:18 - 15:19]: Yeah, they're speaking.

Paige Nolan [15:19 - 15:19]: That's winning.

Scott Levin [15:19 - 15:20]: They seem to be.

Paige Nolan [15:21 - 15:22]: That's winning.

Scott Levin [15:22 - 15:22]: Friendly.

Paige Nolan [15:22 - 15:23]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [15:23 - 15:40]: She said that he remarried. You know, a lot of times, I see someone, and when I see someone in public, I don't go up to them unless they come up to me, like, I don't want them to have to say who I am to them. But, you know, most of the time, you know, unless there's a problem, I'm not hearing from people later.

Paige Nolan [15:40 - 15:41]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [15:41 - 15:46]: So, like, what happens in their lives? You know, sometimes I google just to see, like, if there's anything.

Paige Nolan [15:47 - 15:47]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [15:47 - 15:51]: You know, out there just to see, because I. But, like, yeah, I'm not, like, getting a lot of follow up later.

Paige Nolan [15:52 - 16:17]: Yeah. So tell us about that time. Like, okay, so you get the. This is the wonderful thing about therapists and coaches and even friends who just can hold space for you and reflect back to you your skills and kind of who you are. So she must have seen in you the little Scott that you described earlier to us, you know, and she kind of plants the seed. Where do you go from there? Do you explore it with maybe a colleague or somebody who was already mediating?

Scott Levin [16:18 - 18:46]: Yeah, well, I was. I was not in the best headspace. My dad had died, like, a year before that, and a lot of, like, my, you know. You know, he, like, died at his desk and was, like, tied to his work and, like, his whole life was his work, and I was, like, very conflicted. Like, was like, I want to make money and I want to do work, but, like, I don't want to, like, end up, like, you know, tied to my job and blah, blah, blah, blah. So, no, I'm still with that therapist because I can't. I just have a hard time thinking about, like, starting over. Yeah, I know. We're kind of, like, more like friends. Not friends, but, like. But to start over and give the energy of the background story, I feel like it's over. Yeah, but. So where did I go? So there's a guy named Bob Copeland, who was a local mediator who ran this group called Second Saturday. Second Saturday still exists. I actually speak in it now, but basically, it's a place for people to go to learn about their divorce options, and it's like $40 to go. It's a nonprofit, and there's an attorney that speaks. There's a finance divorce like this all about divorce. Second Saturday, divorce workshop. So there's a litigation attorney. There's a certified divorce financial analyst. There's a mediator, there's a therapist, and it goes on from nine to one on the second Saturday of every month. And they're all over the place in case anyone wants to look them up. The one that I speak at is at Municoasta College in San Diego. So basically, I went to that second Saturday, I paid the $40, and I listened to everybody, and I was, like, studying, like, family law out of a book. And then I met Bob, and he was gracious. Kind of took me not under his wing, but, like, was like, I'm absolutely, you know, want to help you. He was in his mid sixties at this point, so he's been retired for a few years now. And, you know, he gave me, you know, his thoughts on, like, you know, what mediation is and why, you know, and really kind of coached me on the why. And then the how. The how was scarier. Right. Like, because, you know, you know, it's an important process. There's a legal process to divorce that I didn't really know how to do. And then there's a, you know, coming to the agreement part.

Paige Nolan [18:46 - 18:46]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [18:46 - 20:34]: And immediately what I do is both help people arrive at the agreements and execute on them through the courts so they don't have to ever go to court. So, like, my clients don't go to court, but I have to, like, relay the agreement to the judge. So it's a whole, you know, legal process. So what. How did I got. I was blessed beyond belief. So Bob had a paralegal named Laura Rydell. Laura is, like, my second mother to this day. Laura was a paralegal who mediated on the side for about 35 years. And basically she comediated with me and she showed me how to do the forms, how to. We just kind of talked people. Comediating is such a powerful tool. We still. I believe in comediation especially. I know gender is not the in thing these days, necessarily, but, like, a male female team, it's tremendously impactful. I still offer it to all my clients, but, like, you know, we helped really difficult cases. Some of my hardest cases were the first ones we ever, I ever got with Laura in retrospect. And so basically, you know, for about three years, I just co mediated with her exclusively. Every single client, you know, that called or whatever, I would. We would do a four way mediation. And I just got really blessed. I mean, that's the way, of course, I took all sorts of courses. There's a guy, Woody, most in, who's kind of the go to for, like, you know, mediation training. Almost every mediator that's been mediating for a decade or two becomes a mediation trainer. That's the thing.

Paige Nolan [20:35 - 20:43]: Well, that makes sense because of the experience and your boots on the ground, you can see where the little traps are with people not getting along.

Scott Levin [20:45 - 21:04]: Yeah, but, you know, so, like, that's those are helpful. And I spent a lot of money doing those training, and I did. I did a bunch of them. But, you know, without Laura, like, that's the real training is if by doing the actual witnessing a mediation, like, witnessing being a part of or.

Paige Nolan [21:04 - 21:04]: And.

Scott Levin [21:04 - 21:08]: Or witnessing the mediation, that's where I learned how to do what I do.

Paige Nolan [21:08 - 21:10]: Yeah, I love that.

Scott Levin [21:10 - 21:21]: That, you know, there's not a lot of people. Yeah. Not everyone would like. Not everyone's gonna have access to that situation, but that's my advice to anyone, to find that.

Paige Nolan [21:21 - 22:51]: Yeah. And get that experience to the power of partnership, and that's what you're. You're coming to the table. You know, when I first heard about your job, it's like, oh, well, Scott helps people break up, but really what you're helping people do is agree upon a shared vision for the future. So it's not. I always tell people if I'm going to see couples, I really want to work with, couples who intend to stay together. So we're opposites in a certain way, because it's just a different skill set, it's a different job title, but we're also. Everything that rises, converges. We're both trying to help people verbalize what they want and work towards this creative future that's different from the unhappiness that you feel in the moment. And I think the fact that you're doing it with Laura is so powerful, because that's my hope for our future, is that we do learn how to work together better, whether it's together to separate in a business or a marriage, or it's together to build something new. But I think I shouldn't worry. But I do worry sometimes that we lose some of that in our little silos of holding up our phones or getting in our lane and just researching the thing that we. The perspective that we already hold. And you sitting down with a female, different life experience, different age, different background, and working with her is so powerful, it launched your whole career. So I'm glad to have people hear that.

Scott Levin [22:51 - 24:13]: And she went through, I mean, I don't want to speak for her, but there was a separation process in her history that was pretty warrior focused and unfortunate. And, you know, I'm married. I haven't been divorced. So, you know, people ask me that when they're interviewing me, like, are you married? You know, that's. That sometimes is important to them. But, yeah, Laura can. I can tell people, like, this is what's gonna happen if you end up litigating. This is what a judge is gonna say, I feel very confident. Like, if I'm called on to, like, you know, do that after all these years, I feel like I could. I could predict. But Laura, you know, so many times would say, look, here's what happened in my situation, and this is what's going to happen in yours if we don't get this rolling. And she would tell, you know, from her. From her experience, but I think that was, you know, really impactful and something that I, you know, I don't have that genuine experience, so it's harder for me. I have to share it through. Yeah. When she's not there, I have to share either her story or other people's stories where they've fallen out of mediation or they started in litigation for two or three years, and then they found me, and then we solved it, you know, like those sort of, you know, stories. But it's not personal to me, and I think that her personal story really impacted people.

Paige Nolan [24:14 - 25:01]: Sure. What can you tell us about when you know, and maybe you can't ever know for sure, but when you feel optimistic that it's going to go well, these two people come to the table, they're in conflict. They both agree, or I guess they don't always agree, that they want to separate. I imagine sometimes you want one person who wants to end it and one person who doesn't. But can you tell us that's harder? Yeah, that's hard. What are the signs when we come to the table, whether we're getting divorced or not, just with. And it could be with a. Someone could be listening who has a business partner. I'm imagining people listening who are married and they're having a conflict. What's, like, a good rule of thumb where we ultimately want the conflict resolved? Set us up for success. Yeah. What is it?

Scott Levin [25:02 - 25:16]: That desire to have it resolved is really, like, nine tenths of the battle. So how we frame this, how I frame my work and going back to your kind of teamwork thing is. It's really teamwork.

Paige Nolan [25:16 - 25:17]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [25:17 - 26:39]: We form a team. We're on team us. Okay. The issues of the problem are on the other side of the court. So we're not battling each other. We're on the same team. We're battling the issues. So how do we defeat the issues? We come up with creative solutions. We talk things out. We go over all the world of options. We negotiate, but that when there is one person, and oftentimes people call me and one of them doesn't want to be there, and what I tell people is not either that they don't want the divorce. And I say, if this is going to happen, then I want you to do it the healthiest possible way. That's where I come in. I'm not here. I don't want to get involved in cases where there's real resistance to the process. I have one right now, and it's very. It's hard for me to move that along. One person wants to move it along, the other person finds reasonable to delay the next meeting or to, you know, not respond to emails. And I, you know, I can't chase people down. I feel awkward being like, when are we gonna talk about this divorce? You know, like, I mean, like, when people consult with me, I don't follow up with them until they follow up with me either. My wife's like, you don't. You don't, like, check in after a week or two? I'm like, well, what. What am I gonna say? Like, are you ready to hire me for your divorce?

Paige Nolan [26:39 - 26:53]: Well, I think the nature of a successful mediation, I think, also is the person's engagement. You know, like, you're not tracking people down because you don't want to be working harder than your client. Same thing in my life.

Scott Levin [26:53 - 26:58]: I tell people, yeah, they have to be willing participants. I'm not, daddy.

Paige Nolan [26:58 - 26:59]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [26:59 - 27:09]: I'm not. I'm not going to be scolding people. The mediation is a. Is a process that allows the parties to stay in control of the outcome, but they also have to do the work.

Paige Nolan [27:09 - 27:09]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [27:10 - 27:18]: So, like, when people hate when people hire a lawyer, that most of the time they're like, here, solve this for me. And that lawyer becomes everything to them.

Paige Nolan [27:18 - 27:18]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [27:18 - 28:52]: Like, that. They agree with whatever that person says, whatever the advice is, whatever the strategy is, because they don't know, you know, this is. This person becomes their everything. This is the one person that knows. They don't know. They feel helpless. They don't. The person's talking about code section 7453. They're going to hearings where the judge is talking about, you know, the number of years and why that matters, to support. Like, they. They don't know these things. It's all foreign. And so they hand their life over to this person, and it's a very dangerous situation because this person also has 50 other people in that situation that's better depending on them. And you're kind of, like, you can kind of be like that. The hapless, helpless. Like, you're not taking responsibility for where you're at in life. In mediation, you have to do more work. You have to come up with ideas. You have to be as engaged. I can only push so hard. It's up to you guys to also, you know, fill out the forms that disclose your finances. You can't just, like, lock it on to another person. So it takes a. It takes a little bit of a self starter. Yeah, but. But the reason that I. Even though there's, you know, a little. Couple more hours of work for that, that I need that person to be willing to engage us by doing that work, by, like, understand, by getting, like, writing all their bank accounts down, writing out, looking up what they think their house is worth, you know, looking up their four hundred one k to see what it's worth, all of that will start to make people feel better.

Paige Nolan [28:52 - 28:53]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [28:53 - 28:55]: You know, it's the unknown that creates fear.

Paige Nolan [28:55 - 28:56]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [28:56 - 29:34]: So by doing that work and writing all that stuff down, which I asked them to do and then allowing me to exchange it with them, so now they're seeing their information and the other person's information, you know, that's work that a lawyer normally would do for the person. A lawyer would ask for all the logins, and they would send them a million statements, but not do it themselves, but doing it themselves and then seeing it on the paper, it makes you feel better because it starts to. You start to get clarity about the situation. And the unknown is, you know, the overwhelming feeling, you know, that doesn't go away until you start to get, like, a sense for, like, what's going to happen.

Paige Nolan [29:34 - 29:34]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [29:35 - 29:43]: Staying in control really, actually is really a helpful part of the process and making you. Making it less stressful for people.

Paige Nolan [29:43 - 31:36]: And I want to add to people listening who are saying, well, I'm not getting divorced anytime soon. What you just said is so key for married people. I talked to so many married people who don't know what the other partner does, you know, like, making a list of how do you spend your time? Well, how do you spend your time? And before you get in fights about the delegation of the household and responsibilities, actually writing down, you don't have to argue about it out of this unknown, uncertain assumptions, or you have all these ideas about what the other person should be doing, but when you look at the facts of it and you write down, okay, this is what Boyd and I have done, this exercise. This is what I've done, and this is what you've done, and then you actually can have a conversation about it and agree, I think, so much of conflict resolution, I'm agreeing, finding out, even, like, the 2% that you agree on and both buying into that, and then it moves you forward. In fact, I want to ask you that, because I think a big part of your work and my work and anybody in relationship is incremental wins, like momentum. That happens. And so I imagine, I've never been in the room with a mediator, but I imagine that in your experience, people are coming to the table with heightened emotions, you know, where it's like these big ideas about, well, we're never going to be able to figure out how to co parent or how do we split this property. So can you talk to us about how you. Well, I have two. I'm curious about two things. One is understanding how to deal with a heightened state of emotion. So what do you do when you know the other person is like super entrenched in their passionate viewpoint? And secondly, this idea of momentum, like agreeing upon smaller things to build, I'm interested about that.

Scott Levin [31:36 - 32:45]: I love momentum. Yeah, I mean, momentum is a huge part. So I actually require that we meet like every week or two because I do think that momentum builds from appointment to an appointment. Yeah, appointment as well. From issue to issue. But appointment, appointment, you have to continue the conversation and build towards that collaboration. There is something to momentum. Totally. And that, that's on issue to issue as well. So, like, on assets or, you know, anything. Like you said, this doesn't have to be about divorce, but, you know, there's a lot that you're going to agree on because a lot isn't, you know, a lot is like, what the law says or what, you know, people will naturally reach agreements. Like, okay, yeah, I keep my car, you keep your car. Let's add up the values. Let's see if there's a, you know, like, okay, yeah, we'll split the bank accounts at some point. We'll talk about that. Like, okay, what's, like, a lot of this will just, you kind of like, go through it in a ten or 15 minutes. You have this big stack of agreements and I'm a big, you know, I'm a. When I tell people, they, you hire me. Like, you're not going to get robot Scott.

Paige Nolan [32:45 - 32:45]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [32:46 - 32:53]: So, like, I'm going to, like, take a second and be like, look at that, guys. Look what we just accomplished. Like, isn't that. Is that.

Paige Nolan [32:53 - 32:54]: I love that.

Scott Levin [32:54 - 33:35]: Oh, my God. Yeah, that's way more like, so I'm a, I'm a coach and, you know, I'm rooting them on, I'm encouraging them, but when there's disagreement and people, you know, all I could do is help people. The parties. The first thing is, like, helping them understand what their perspectives are, like, making sure that they're really hearing each other. I'm making sure that they're giving each other the space to express themselves. So sometimes I have, like, this, like, a client actually gave me this, like, six years ago, like, this cheesy little, like, little clock, and it, like, you set a timer and it starts type, you know. You know, I could do it for my phone, but, like, this thing kind of makes a point.

Paige Nolan [33:35 - 33:35]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [33:35 - 33:44]: And then, you know, I'm like, here, let's give it. Like, because sometimes people make, like, our speaking, and I'll look at the other person, and they're kind of waiting for them to take a breath.

Paige Nolan [33:44 - 33:45]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [33:45 - 33:46]: So that they can jump in.

Paige Nolan [33:46 - 33:47]: Yes.

Scott Levin [33:47 - 33:49]: Like, they're not. They're not really, like, letting it sink.

Paige Nolan [33:49 - 33:50]: Absolutely.

Scott Levin [33:50 - 34:32]: So I have to make sure they're hearing each other. So when I'm summarizing things, sometimes people will be like, well, that's. Is that what they said? And I'm like, yeah. And also, like, things can trigger, like, you know, like, yeah. Last night, I was in a mediation where I totally saw, you know, there was a grunt, or I don't know what you would call it came out of, you know, the husband in this situation. I saw that with the wife, like, literally was talking and totally paused it, like, threw her off, because that triggered her, like, that interaction. And I, you know, that's obviously something that goes back 25 years in their relationship. They know that, you know, that language is unspoken, but they know what it meant. She know what? She knew what his grunt meant.

Paige Nolan [34:32 - 34:33]: Yes.

Scott Levin [34:33 - 34:49]: And I don't know if it was even intentional by him, but we stopped, and I was like, just so you know, I really saw that this threw her off. And, you know, I think that you should recognize, like. Yeah. To try to refrain. Cause, like, I could see it was, like, taking us down the wrong road.

Paige Nolan [34:49 - 34:51]: Yeah, they were able to get back on track.

Scott Levin [34:52 - 34:55]: Yeah, we were able to get back on track. It was a very tense meeting.

Paige Nolan [34:55 - 34:55]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [34:55 - 35:19]: They had not talked in a long time, and they. It was a. You know, we actually got some mojo towards the end of it, but the first, you know, 45 minutes. Minutes of this meeting was, like, very quiet and, like, tense and not, you know, they were very guarded and, you know, so, like, how do I deal with that, for an example, we start going, like, over the little things.

Paige Nolan [35:19 - 35:19]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [35:20 - 36:22]: You know, I want to build momentum, so, you know, I didn't know much about their situation, but I started, like, with, like, you know, so they had told me that they were going to sell their house or something, so I was like, so I see that cool painting behind you. You know, is that. You know, is that significant, though? Then just from a flea market, I was like, what about the. Do you guys have artwork or anything of particular value that, like, you know, that you'll have to kind of divide when we sell? No, I think we could take care of that. You know, the pots and pans. Yeah, no, that's silly. Like, we're not at that level. And I'm like, good. Okay, so, like, you guys will be able to go through, and. And they're both like, yeah, and now we're on the air track, so now we can move. You guys both have cars? Oh, yeah, they're old, but, I mean, Scott, do people worry about the cars? Will some do. Let me tell you how it works. They're like, no, we'll just keep our own car. Okay, so now we're like, you know, now I know there's more difficult stuff coming if there was.

Paige Nolan [36:22 - 38:42]: That's interesting that you feel building momentum and taking the small agreements helps heightened emotions. Like, I was asking the question, like, they were two separate things, but in your world, they're actually connected. It sounds like that can kind of soften some of the, like, heightened emotional responses. I love what you said about body language, because I've noticed in my own marriage, I'll narrate body language, either my own or Boyd's. So we had a discussion the other night where he was very passionate about something political, and I was more neutral about it. And so it was just this little tension that it was so dumb that it kind of heightened. But we both. He was tired. I was kind of in the middle of preparing for something, and it was at night, which isn't always our best time, and it was here in this office. So that's the door to the hallway. And so I had turned my face away from my laptop to talk to him, and when the conversation started to get heated, he started closing the door where his face was, like, just in the door. It was so interesting. It was totally. Neither one of us likes conflict, so his body language was like, I actually don't want to be doing this. And so I stopped. I was able to, like, breathe for a second, and just. I just narrated it and said, oh, I noticed that you're starting to close the door. Like, I think this conversation is, like, over. Like, it's not productive. And it was just this interesting. I've also done that with. In the beginning of our marriage, when I didn't feel like he listened as well as he does now. I would say to him, oh, it looks like you're looking at your phone and you're talking to me at the same time. Do you want to put your phone down or when you're ready to just talk to me? And this was more when we both started working from home. So it was really hard to toggle between family life and work life, and we had to work out boundaries and all that. And it seems, as I'm describing it, it could seem a little condescending or a little like, I used to be a preschool teacher, so a little like, preschool teacher ish. But in reality, when you take a moment to say something neutral like that, it can kind of disrupt the emotional pattern that you're in, and the other person can be like, oh, yeah, I am shutting the door on your face right now. Maybe I am done with this conversation.

Scott Levin [38:42 - 38:42]: Yeah.

Paige Nolan [38:43 - 38:44]: So I love.

Scott Levin [38:45 - 40:30]: And another thing. I mean, I tell my kids this, too, so. And you probably tell people this all the time, so this is not a genius thing that Scott said, but when people are having conflict between the mediation sessions, you know, it's very. It's really important to keep things peaceful, like, so that we can do the, you know, the hard work of figuring out, you know, what the agreement terms are, and some people will share, like, you know, this is what he or she sent me, you know, in between our, you know, our last mediation session. This session, I'm like, you know, it takes one of you guys to stop that. So if one of you stops responding and stops going down that rabbit hole, and I'm not saying I'm better than you. I could show you my text, my wife sometimes. It's not always pretty, but, like, one of you stops the b's and just, you know, the other person will get on board with it eventually, and they'll stop doing that. So that's obviously a huge thing for co parents later, like, you know, just focusing on, you know, on the. On the issues and the kids and not. And not kind of being. Going down the attack route. But one thing I wanted to ask you, Paige, is. And this is hard for a lot of people, and this isn't. This is a lot of my clients. A lot of my clients come to me and say they've never. You know, I say, okay, do you guys have shared bank accounts? They go, no, we each have our own. We've never had joint bank accounts. And I don't know. I just wanted to just mention that to people. Like, a lot of people that get divorced are not sharing money.

Paige Nolan [40:30 - 40:32]: Interesting.

Scott Levin [40:32 - 40:50]: And in California, the money is both of yours, no matter where it is, if it's in the marriage. So I guess my. I don't know. I don't want to be, like, too forward, but I encourage people. Like, I think that that has a mental component to it, that you're not fully forming a team.

Paige Nolan [40:50 - 40:51]: Yes.

Scott Levin [40:51 - 40:53]: When you're not sharing finances.

Paige Nolan [40:53 - 40:53]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [40:54 - 41:12]: And I know that's scary, and I know that's. I don't want to. That's not legal advice or anything. But, you know, I think that refraining from, like, creating a shared financial situation and feeling and forming that team, you know, leads to separation.

Paige Nolan [41:12 - 42:27]: I can tell you in conversations that I've had, especially with women, I always encourage people to know more about their money. And if. And so if there are two separate accounts or two different ways of dealing with money, my curiosity is always, why? What does that serve? What are your values? And bring it to the partnership. Talk about. And this is, even with, I'll help small businesses sometimes because two friends will go in business together or somebody wants to go into business with maybe a social friend, because I help a lot of people in mid life, so there's a lot of career interests and pivots and entrepreneurship. And I agree with what you're saying. I think it's wonderful for our audience to hear that and the way that I go about it, and this is kind of my philosophy, and everything is just put it in the light. Get it in the light. The more you can verbalize and articulate what matters to you, and saying, this means something to me, you know, I love using that phrasing with partners. Like, bring that phrase to your partners. It would mean a lot to me if. And then make your request or, you know, if we talked more about money or if we had a joint account so we could practice. You know, money is so tricky. It's. So there's.

Scott Levin [42:27 - 42:28]: Money is tricky.

Paige Nolan [42:28 - 42:56]: Oh, my goodness. And there's so much from your childhood. There's so many messages, there's so many cultural messages. There's so many shadows around how we feel about it. So even just to have one conversation about money where one of you doesn't leave is winning. You know, like, just staying in the room, staying at the table. Do you ever actually, on that note, Scott, do you ever call a timeout? Like, do you ever, like, have people take a break and then come back to the table?

Scott Levin [42:58 - 43:00]: I do we call it a walk around the building?

Paige Nolan [43:00 - 43:02]: Okay, good. Yeah, that makes sense.

Scott Levin [43:03 - 43:21]: Yeah. You know, so most of our work is all three of us in the same room, virtually or in person, but, you know, very rarely. But occasionally, I will put people in separate rooms and do the whole back and forth. But most of the time, I'm really trying to keep everyone in the same room so they hear each other.

Paige Nolan [43:21 - 43:22]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [43:23 - 44:04]: You know, it's not about, like, positioning or posturing in mediation. Like, I know people start up here and here. That idea is, like, to meet in the middle most of the time, like, you know, that's kind of like B's. I mean, most of the time, like, if you hear the person directly, you kind of naturally will come to, like, more equitable, you know, solutions from the beginning. But, yeah, we pause when it's very emotional. I'll walk out, get some water with them. I'll ask if they want some ice or gum or candy or chocolate. I have all sorts of stuff, but, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of emotions that go into this process. And how do you handle your own empathetic person?

Paige Nolan [44:05 - 44:07]: Like, how do you handle your own experience?

Scott Levin [44:07 - 44:56]: I don't want to sound cruel. Yeah. I mean, when I come home and I talk to my wife about stuff, I kind of, like. I kind of almost feel like I'm watching a movie sometimes. Not that I'm not participating in it, but, like, the things that are being said are really, like, interpersonal sometimes. And, like, you know, I've been doing this work, like, a long time, and I. It doesn't. It doesn't, like, you know, I understand what's being said, but in the moment, I, you know, I'm also trying to be impartial. So most often, one person is very emotional. The other person is feeling, like the emotional part is like a. Not a game, but it's like being. They're worried that I'm going to be impacted to feel sorry for them. So, like, I avoid that.

Paige Nolan [44:56 - 44:58]: Yeah, sure. Because you don't want to try and.

Scott Levin [44:58 - 45:20]: Yeah, yeah, and I'm not trying to. I want to show that. I want to, you know, acknowledge the. Acknowledge it, but, like, I can't. I can't, like, become too. Too impacted by it because the other person's on a heightened alert at that point to make sure, like, that I'm not being impacted, then I'm staying neutral.

Paige Nolan [45:20 - 46:17]: Yeah, I love that. I actually think the skill, observing your life as a movie is a really important skill that all of us could do a better job at. Because if you have that viewpoint of it's not positive or negative, it just is what it is, and I'm watching this, and I can observe my inner response to it. If people had more of that, I would imagine that there would be less divorce, you know, because it wouldn't be so personal. And it's all this, like, this world of pain coming at you when in some ways, it's all about your partner's own pain, you know? And I don't know. I just think observing with neutrality is, like, the key to being responsive. And I would imagine in your line of work, it's a lot about reaction versus response. You know, I think when a conversation goes off rails, it's because it gets so reactive, we've lost the front part of our brain.

Scott Levin [46:19 - 46:22]: Exactly. And that goes back to making sure that they've hurt each other.

Paige Nolan [46:22 - 46:23]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [46:23 - 46:29]: Right. Like some people, sometimes. A lot of times people are responding, and I'm like, wait a. Hold up 1 second. I don't. I didn't hear.

Paige Nolan [46:29 - 46:31]: Yeah, I've said that same thing. I didn't hear.

Scott Levin [46:32 - 46:33]: What did you think they said?

Paige Nolan [46:33 - 46:33]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [46:33 - 46:40]: And they said, oh, well, they didn't say it, but, like, four years ago, their mother told me, and I'm like, we're here.

Paige Nolan [46:40 - 46:41]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [46:41 - 46:50]: You know, the 2015 trip to England, that 2020 Thanksgiving at mom's house, none of that is relevant to the year. And now.

Paige Nolan [46:51 - 46:51]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [46:51 - 47:09]: With me, like, you know, so we got to figure out. I love what you said in terms. Yeah, I totally agree. And, you know, in terms of divorce, and I. And I know you don't want to, you know, I. There's studies that show that most people regret divorce later.

Paige Nolan [47:09 - 47:10]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [47:10 - 47:20]: And they find out through their second or third marriages or their, you know, their future relationships that it turns out it wasn't all the other person's fault.

Paige Nolan [47:20 - 47:20]: Yes.

Scott Levin [47:20 - 47:58]: You know, it. They both. Both people, you know, play a role, and both people could change their. Change that reality to make. To make, you know, you kind of are responsible for your own happiness, in a way. Right. But, like, the studies show that people in their seventies that look back on their divorce feel regret. They also feel tremendous regret if they litigate, like, the divorce, because most people come together later in life and they become friends with their first, you know, with their spouse, their divorced spouse over the grandchildren.

Paige Nolan [47:58 - 47:59]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [47:59 - 48:06]: The studies also show that they have tremendous regret on how they. How they navigated the process. If they let it get, you know, ugly.

Paige Nolan [48:06 - 48:07]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [48:08 - 48:24]: How do we stop that? You know, it's like, like you said, being more aware of like. Yeah, less reactionary, I guess. But I mean, there's a lot of things that go into it. But, you know, the bottom line is I would love people to get divorced less. I don't think it's most of the time better.

Paige Nolan [48:24 - 48:24]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [48:24 - 49:03]: Their lives aren't better. Their kids lives, you know, can be impacted. Kids are resilient though, but, you know, they can be impacted in their financial situation. Unless you're extremely wealthy, you know, you're going to feel a difference. But I also see a lot of success stories and in the transitions. You know, I, you know, because I'm in San Diego, I do see people that I've worked with from time to time and they'll come up and they'll be like, you know, stay at home mom who hadn't worked in twelve years and it was so legitimately like so scared about like what that those next steps look like they'll tell me about their, their career success.

Paige Nolan [49:03 - 49:03]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [49:03 - 49:08]: And how they got out there and how they, so you could just tell they're so proud of themselves.

Paige Nolan [49:08 - 49:09]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [49:10 - 49:28]: And they've achieved like, you know, a lot and they've taken responsibility and, you know, just to have really changed their situation from that, that fear of the unknown to their new reality. And it's really inspiring. But yeah, I wish people got divorced in less numbers.

Paige Nolan [49:28 - 51:15]: Sure. Me too. I feel like one of the themes that I hear in the things that you're sharing and just that I know now about your work is this idea of being curious. And when you say, okay, I don't know how we stop that, how do we get more response, you know, less reactive, more responsive and you're naturally curious, like just your energy around. Well, I ask this, what did you hear? Like, that's a question. Or I say, you know what? I imagine that you would have to define co parenting before you could even have a conversation about co parenting. You have to get curious about what each individual's definition of co parenting is. And curiosity is a huge part of my work too. And I think for people listening, that is an answer, is how curious can you be about your partner now? And if you are in a place in attention, in any relationship in your life, rather than turning away from the conflict and away from the tension, is to face it and get curious about it. From this position of observing, what can I learn about what this person really wants? People in conflict, they want something. I had to learn that. I'm sure you've learned that being at the table with people, you know, it's like you have your natural way of being, and it sounds like you were pretty curious about people growing up naturally, you know, and just the glue, as you said, and peacekeeping. And I'm like that, too, in my life. But then there's this other level of, can you handle the discomfort of tension, you know, and have the curiosity be the bigger energy there and just kind of breathe through your discomfort and say, well, if I don't find out, if I don't know more, we can't agree. So it's, it has a lot.

Scott Levin [51:15 - 51:19]: I totally agree. I totally, I. We're on the same wave page.

Paige Nolan [51:19 - 51:36]: Peacekeeping. So tell me how you got the moniker. You. You call yourself chief Peacekeeper. I want to understand that. And was that how you arrived to the profession? Did you immediately, like, game on? You were with Laura. This is my calling. Or have you gotten better at your job? So tell, tell us about the piece.

Scott Levin [51:36 - 51:48]: I think I've gotten better. I think I've gotten better, but I was very energetic about, like, trying to help people from the very get go. That energy might have waned a little bit over all these years.

Paige Nolan [51:48 - 51:49]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [51:49 - 52:51]: But I get it. It's been countered by the, by the, you know, increase in knowledge and understanding and just being able to read the room. But, yeah, it kind of took off from the beginning. I was definitely very focused on mediation for family law. Like, right from the beginning, I didn't want to litigate. I bet on this train all these years since Chief Peacekeeper came about, in about 2012. So I was working as a mediator for a divorce for a couple that were Native Americans, that one of them was on the, the tribal council for their tribe, and. And, you know, we did the signing. So when, you know, so it's a little, people think it's a little strange, but we do typically sign, like, the. All the agreements and stuff at my office together. And some people do, like, you know, take pictures. Most, you know, some people are sad.

Paige Nolan [52:51 - 52:51]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [52:51 - 53:11]: People just come in and don't say much, and we sign. Others are, you know, chit chatty and exchange. Oh, here's this. And they're, you know, like, I've had people cut out school photos, like, oh, this came, you know, this came home, and they're, like, exchanging those, and other people are taking pictures of, like, that. They want me to take a picture of them signing, like, the settlement agreement.

Paige Nolan [53:11 - 53:11]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [53:12 - 53:23]: So this couple, she looked up at me when she was signing, and she said, you're my chief peacekeeper. And so I said, oh, I'm gonna steal that from you. Is that okay?

Paige Nolan [53:23 - 53:24]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [53:24 - 53:25]: So that's kind of how it came.

Paige Nolan [53:25 - 53:28]: Out of an experience. I love that.

Scott Levin [53:29 - 53:38]: Yeah. She said it, and I said, I, you know, I asked if, like, if it's cheap, is that, like, am I able to use, like, is that offensive? She said no.

Paige Nolan [53:38 - 53:39]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [53:39 - 53:50]: I just tell people that it came from me, but, yeah, so, like, I trademarked it, basically. I, like, you know, just went on the website. I just thought it kind of defined, like, what I was about.

Paige Nolan [53:50 - 53:50]: Yeah.

Scott Levin [53:50 - 54:01]: And, you know, I'll be driving. You know, sometimes I'll hear the word chief. You know, I'm like, oh, that's funny. Like, you know, it's just kind of what I've known by.

Paige Nolan [54:01 - 54:46]: Yeah, well, I like what you said earlier when I asked about conflict. The most important thing you said was agreeing that we want this. We want to get through the problem. And the problem is actually the problem, and the two of us are together. And so by you leading with that moniker or that nickname, it, to me, it keeps the most important thing, the most important thing, you know, we want to get through this. We want to keep some sense of peace. We both want, you know, there to be a happier future, you know, and that even if one person wants out and the other one doesn't, the happier future is the person getting out. Ultimately, as hard as that is, you know, and to create some shared vision of what that could look like, I don't know. I think it's.

Scott Levin [54:46 - 54:56]: And if someone wants out, and if someone wants out, like, that other person may find a future relationship that maybe is more fulfilling to, you know.

Paige Nolan [54:56 - 54:58]: Of course. Yeah.

Scott Levin [54:58 - 55:34]: And. And they can show their kids what, you know, a loving relationship, you know, looks like, you know, in this next steps to them. And that's important, too, right? Like kids, people say, you know, stay for the kids. Stay for the kids. Of course that's. There's something to that, but there's also something showing the kids, like, what love and, like, what? Like commitment and like, what a nurturing, you know, partnership looks like. And if you're. If you're like this, like, if, you know, like my parents, like, the second that we walked out the door at 18, all of a sudden we, you know. Yeah, they were divorcing. It's like, well, we. That wasn't a surprise.

Paige Nolan [55:34 - 55:37]: Yeah. You knew it was coming ten years ago. Yeah, yeah.

Scott Levin [55:37 - 55:47]: But it also felt weird. Like, right at eight, like, the second that we graduated, you know, like, it was like, kind of felt like we were like the ones holding them back.

Paige Nolan [55:47 - 55:48]: Yes.

Scott Levin [55:48 - 55:55]: Which, you know, a lot of people do they wait until their kids are out of the house? But there's something, you know, that could be strange, too.

Paige Nolan [55:55 - 56:18]: Well, kids can feel it. Yeah. And I think what you're standing for is an honest peace. Not just peace on the outside, but something that is aligned and full of integrity. What has surprised you about, you know, what you've learned when people are trying to resolve conflict and when it's going well in a way that you didn't expect it, what does that look like?

Scott Levin [56:19 - 58:12]: You know, that's an interesting question. I have had people get back together. You know, like you said, it's maybe like one a year or one every couple years. But I'm often surprised that people are, like some couples that I'm working with. There seems to be a lot of love there, and, like, I'm. I never asked the question, but, you know, I see a lot of generosity in what I do. That that was like, if I could go back and talk to younger Scott, you know, that would be, like, what I would tell myself. That was surprising. You know, people think that, yeah, I deal with a lot of conflict, and sometimes it's heavy and. And, you know, it can be challenging for me to deal with, too. But as much of the negative, I see the positive. Almost 50 50 people show each other more generosity. They want to oftentimes set each other up, like, for success. They're not trying to defeat the other person or punish them. Like I said, that does happen, but we're also the generosity, the love. And I oftentimes am feeling like, am I going to hear from this couple that they're going to try to reconcile? Because sometimes it's the first time that they're really having honest, open conversations in a number of years, and they're, like, kind of spark that you can feel that, like, mojo is, like, coming back, but, you know, when does it actually happen? There's not, like, one set of circumstances that takes it over that edge or not. But the collaboration, like I said, helps. That collaboration of having that joint financial partnership or those joint conversations so that everyone's going to know, like you said, just furthering that collaboration and on that teamwork element in our lives makes people feel better.

Paige Nolan [58:12 - 1:02:37]: Yes. Oh, that's so good. I love that. Thank you so much, Scott. What a joy to have you, to get you to myself for a whole hour. I know we see each other in passing, and I always love your vibe, but to get you for a whole hour and really hear about your life is really a joy. I've had so many thoughts since my time with Scott, but there are two ideas that I want to share with y'all that I've come to believe are just absolutely key to healthier relationships. The first is having the desire to resolve the conflict being a major part of resolving the conflict. It seems so obvious, but it's so easy to overlook. There's a difference between wanting to be right and wanting to resolve a conflict. If you really tune in and find in your heart the intention to resolve a conflict, that sets the tone for the whole interaction, and you can find space in that intention for both of you to voice your needs and your wants. It took me years of marriage and a lot of life coaching experiences to truly understand how important it is to want to get along, to want to confront your problems. You have to claim that desire and set the intention. And then the second key idea I glean from Scott is this idea of making the issues the problem rather than making each other the problem. That is an absolute game changer. When the two of you can come together and as Scott says, become team us and see the issue you face as the enemy, it relieves so much tension and takes the argumentative nature out of the conflict. I've seen couples do this successfully and it's so powerful. For example, I had a conversation with a couple last week. They were disagreeing about money. How one person spends money versus how the other person spends money isn't the issue. The real issue. The real problem to solve is how we communicate about money and what systems do we have in place to make sure we're taking good care of our money. I witnessed the couple make this shift in their perspective and the whole tone of their interaction changed. They moved away from resenting each other and they put their focus on creating a solution. They were able to make that shift because they found that little bit of unity. It's all about finding any bit of unity you can find and building on it. So many other takeaways from this conversation with Scott, but I feel like if you hold on to these two key ideas, it can really have a positive impact on your life right away. Scott says the work of mediation doesn't change the world. He acknowledges that it makes an impact, but in his mind, it doesn't change society as a whole. I think it does. I think society only changes when we embrace team us one moment at a time. Thank you, Scott. I am so glad you do the work you do. I so appreciate the way you keep peace and the way you stand for teamwork, and I'm grateful you were able to spend time with us. And thank you all for listening. Please reference the show notes if you want to learn more about Scott's work and check out his podcast, especially if you want to learn more about divorce and the power of mediation. Thanks to to each of you for being here and for listening. I'm so grateful we get to share life in this way. As always, full show notes are available@pagenolin.com podcast there you will find a full summary of the episode, timestamps and key takeaways and any resources mentioned in our conversation. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love if you would leave me a rating and a review. You can do that by visiting pagenolan.com. Love your reviews. Really do help people to discover the show. And if you know someone specifically who would enjoy this episode, I'm so grateful to have you all share. I'll meet you there with your friends. Lastly, if you have any questions or comments, or if you would like to share any feedback with me, please email to meet me there. I would love to hear from you. Thank you to the team that makes this show possible. Podcast Production and marketing by North Node Podcast Network Music by Boyd McDonnell cover photography by Innis Casey okay, y'all, that's it for now. I'll meet you there again soon.